Saving Detroit: Keep the $50 billion, rewrite CAFE instead

[PhishPhood]

Originally Posted by Dr. Show-Me

As long as we have a choice in what vehicles we buy, CAFE for fuel economy reasons will not work. People buy what best suits their needs and desires. People will always need a vehicle that fits their family/friends, is safe and reliable, and the environment needs them to be as ecologically friendly as reasonably possible. If you want a Volt or an Expedition, the government shouldn't tell you that you can't have one.

In fact the government has both the right and the reponsibility to 'tell us what can be driven on the nation's highways'. Such a right and responsibility was specifically written into the Constitution from the outset. This has nothing to do with any enviro-greenie concept. It's much more serious than that. It's why the stronger CAFE was initiated by .... GW Bush ... no greenie there. There is something even more serious on the horizon than some greenie worry about climate change.

By eliminating CAFE, each company will pursue the markets they want, niches will be filled by companies that figure them out, and people will be able to get the vehicles they want and need.
For GM to not be able to pursue a flagship because of CAFE is counterproductive and against the wishes of the American public, I believe.
If people thought out thoroughly the implications of CAFE, they would roundly reject it. They instead would say "Give me a vehicle that is clean, safe, reliable and that meets my needs and wants. I want choices, not government mandates."

In fact it may be against the wishes of the bulk of the populace of MI and OH and WI and TX but the vast majority of the American public is strongly against SUVs and trucks. This is specifically why the politicians voted the way that they did when Mr Bush's plan was proposed and negotiated. As to why that plan was first introduced ( see above ).


CAFE wastes money, time, reduces choices, and makes our car companies less competitive by forcing them to produce vehicles that foreign companies are already producing. If not eliminated completely, CAFE should be reduced to clean air legislation.
We should back the loans to Ford, GM and probably Chrysler because IT IS IN OUR INTERESTS, much like current government actions to prevent the Second Great Depression.
Foreign-based car companies should not be eligible for government loans or help.

So far CAFE has done NOTHING to limit your/our choices. The past version of CAFE didn't stop the Big 3 from making trucks and SUVs. The new version of CAFE 35 doesn't take effect for twelve years!!! It too will have little or no effect. By that time all vehicle makers will have a fleet averaging > 35 mpg..... or the buying public will have sent them to bankruptcy court.

[2002 Caddy]

Originally Posted by AMERICA 123

For once ...... we are in agreement.

That 'flooring' effect is extremely important and has helped the Domestic Big three avoid certain excesses that, thru out their operational

life they have been unfailingly prone to.

A stronger, better, smarter CAFE program - with financial 'support' and financial incentives correctly and strongly favoring or exclusively targeting

our own Big Three would have benefited them - and the Nation from 87 - 2007.

"Trucks" could have been at a minimum a solid 2 - 2.5 mpg better across the board by 2007 - if you had started on it back then and spread it out

over 20 years of production. With intelligent development of turbo diesels - it could've been much more.

Without the current program, we probably would've already lost our domestics who without a doubt, would've gone the other way - if left

to their own devices.

Really think CAFE is a bad idea ?

Then consider this.

If we had had a CAFE program as part of a sensible National Security program in the 1950s and 1960s then Imports, from everywhere else would

not have had such easy pickens' here.

Fuel economy - and nothing else got the Japanese rolling here at the beginning of their run - and only after the Energy/Oil 'crises' of

'73. ( Overall, Japanese 'transportation products' failed here from '58 to 69/71 - and were still weak from '71 -73. )

Do it real smart, and we would've been exporting cars ( at least for a while ) and not just importing them.

YUP! A big X2 on this post... If it wasn't for CAFE, American manufactures WOULDN'T even be in the game. CAFE HELPS American manufactures by getting them to try to build smaller more efficient cars... You know the ones that the rest of the world wants.. If it wasn't for CAFE GM wouldn't have even tried to build a Cobalt like car... ALL we would have from GM would be V8 Cars and Trucks... over the last six months we wouldn't have just seen truck sales "crash" we would have seen ALL sales crash. No CAFE means no VOLT, no Malibu, no CTS, no Cruze...

Interesting that all of the cars that GM Fans point to as the ones that are going to save the company are the same ones that were brought to market to help satisfy CAFE requirements.

I'm not a big fan of CAFE, mostly 'cause the cars that I like to buy, V8, full sized and powerful, have no chance of ever meeting CAFE numbers... but I KNOW that I'm in the minority and my demographic is shrinking fast...

CAFE is leading the way... Companies "ahead of the game" on CAFE are making a KILLING right now... ones playing "catch up" are looking for loan guarantees... Do the math...look at reality, If you like GM, you should be SCREAMING for tighter CAFE numbers.

[BigAls87Z28]

It wouldnt matter, the price of gas is a bigger driver of people moving to compacts then CAFE ever was.
People moved to smaller cars during the fuel crisis because they got better gas milage. GM tried to make small cars after 50 years of making larger cars, and havent figured it out. CAFE didnt help GM or anyone.
We would have a Cobalt here either way. The market is dictating the rules now, not the goverment.
CAFE was a loose structure of ideas. Everyone found ways around them, and overall they were a sorry idea. Could and should they have been proactive in the 50's and 60's? Yeah, but would we have the cars we chrish today?
Either way, it didnt happen, and it doesnt change the current time. GM is not stupid now, they see the market shifting and the are coming up with cars for people to buy.
CAFE didnt bring the Volt out faster, Prius's popularity durring the gas price hike did. The loss in perception did.
CAFE as it sits is worthless. Do you think that if the goverment tomorrow disolves the CAFE requirements, that GM would start dropping LS9's into Aveo's?
Would trucks double in size? Would we see production monster suv's?
No, because the PEOPLE have spoken, and they want better gas milage.
CAFE didnt make GM make a better Malibu
CAFE didnt tell GM to make the Camaro
CAFE didnt help GM develop the Volt
CAFE didnt push the Family Zero engines for the new Cruze
CAFE hasn't done anything but put strict rules out there so that its just another set of hoops for car makers to jump through.
The people, the consumers did.

[stormwatcher]

Originally Posted by 63GrandSport001

You people are insane

We are. Come join us.

[2002 Caddy]

Originally Posted by BigAls87Z28

GM is not stupid now, they see the market shifting and the are coming up with cars for people to buy.
CAFE didn't bring the Volt out faster, Prius's popularity during the gas price hike did. The loss in perception did.
CAFE as it sits is worthless. Do you think that if the government tomorrow dissolves the CAFE requirements, that GM would start dropping LS9's into Aveo's?
Would trucks double in size? Would we see production monster suv's?
No, because the PEOPLE have spoken, and they want better gas milage.

GM's not stupid now, but they sure were pretty dumb from 2002-2007 right? Cause they didn't get ready for the gas crunch sooner...

The problem with this POV is you miss the fundamental truth about gas prices:
1) They are historically "random"... And controlled by foreign nationals... Almost all of whom HATE America and American industry... So, if you try to base your fleet on what gas prices are going to be in 5 years you will ALWAYS be in "catch up" mode (sound familiar?)
2) Gas prices in America are some of the lowest in the world... this ENCOURAGES manufactures to build big heavy and inefficient cars and trucks... The answer to your question is YES... IF CAFE were abolished and if gas got back to the $1.80 a gallon range then YES then GM would drop LS9's into EVERYTHING... Trucks WOULD become HUGE as would SUV's (Take a look..circa 2002, H1, Monster Suburbans, Ford Excursion, etc.. THEY DID! You forget the "size" race... Each OE built bigger and bigger UTEs to out do each other) and they would sell like crazy (Again they did!)... The problem with your "just let the market decide" POV is that the lead time to bring a new car to market is about half a decade... By the time you turn your company around to build the new cars that the people now want you will loose ALL of your market share to off shore competitors (hey sound familiar again?)

If you want GM to be competitive with the rest of the world manufactures you have two choices (both bad)
1) You need have gas prices that are on par with average gas prices in Europe and East Asia... OR
2) CAFE...

Take your pick.

[F14CRAZY]

CAFE really is stupid. The consumers and buying market should determine what vehicles automakers will produce

[AMERICA 123]

Originally Posted by 2002 Caddy

If it wasn't for CAFE, American manufactures WOULDN'T even be in the game.

CAFE HELPS American manufactures by getting them to try to build smaller more efficient cars... You know the ones that the rest of the world wants..

If it wasn't for CAFE GM wouldn't have even tried to build a Cobalt like car... ALL we would have from GM would be V8 Cars and Trucks.

Over the last six months we wouldn't have just seen truck sales "crash" we would have seen ALL sales crash.


Interesting that all of the cars that GM Fans point to as the ones that are going to save the company are the same ones that were brought to market to help satisfy CAFE requirements.

I'm not a big fan of CAFE, mostly 'cause the cars that I like to buy, V8, full sized and powerful, have no chance of ever meeting CAFE numbers... but I KNOW that I'm in the minority and my demographic is shrinking fast...

CAFE is leading the way... Companies "ahead of the game" on CAFE are making a KILLING right now... ones playing "catch up" are looking for loan guarantees... Do the math...look at reality, If you like GM, you should be SCREAMING for tighter CAFE numbers.

Thats a big, big piece of it.

To which I would only add ..... those that heavily 'depended' on E85 CAFE 'credits' .......

[AMERICA 123]

Originally Posted by 2002 Caddy

GM's not stupid now, but they sure were pretty dumb from 2002-2007 right? Cause they didn't get ready for the gas crunch sooner...

The problem with this POV is you miss the fundamental truth about gas prices:
1) They are historically "random"... And controlled by foreign nationals... Almost all of whom HATE America and American industry... So, if you try to base your fleet on what gas prices are going to be in 5 years you will ALWAYS be in "catch up" mode (sound familiar?)
2) Gas prices in America are some of the lowest in the world... this ENCOURAGES manufactures to build big heavy and inefficient cars and trucks... The answer to your question is YES... IF CAFE were abolished and if gas got back to the $1.80 a gallon range then YES then GM would drop LS9's into EVERYTHING... Trucks WOULD become HUGE as would SUV's (Take a look..circa 2002, H1, Monster Suburbans, Ford Excursion, etc.. THEY DID! You forget the "size" race... Each OE built bigger and bigger UTEs to out do each other) and they would sell like crazy (Again they did!)... The problem with your "just let the market decide" POV is that the lead time to bring a new car to market is about half a decade... By the time you turn your company around to build the new cars that the people now want you will loose ALL of your market share to off shore competitors (hey sound familiar again?)

If you want GM to be competitive with the rest of the world manufactures you have two choices (both bad)
1) You need have gas prices that are on par with average gas prices in Europe and East Asia... OR
2) CAFE...

Take your pick.

Pretty much another very good post with a bunch of excellent observations.

We differ in some important details but not on the main thrust.

Building on your post ......

- Another aspect of this is that fuel prices and Asian competitors - regardless of the reasons why, are more 'agile' then our three.

CAFE helps moderate the negative effects of those volatile fuel prices - and Asian competitor 'agility' .

Critically, that's in regards to both up and down fuel price swings.

******************

Your last - on taxes or CAFE is the real, ugly reality concerning our National interests - and oil..

And lets use our heads here.

National priorities of the most important kind - that benefit us all need to come first.

[63GrandSport001]

Originally Posted by stormwatcher

We are. Come join us.

I like my sanity thanks

[63GrandSport001]

Originally Posted by AMERICA 123

Pretty much another very good post with a bunch of excellent observations.

We differ in some important details but not on the main thrust.

Building on your post ......

- Another aspect of this is that fuel prices and Asian competitors - regardless of the reasons why, are more 'agile' then our three.

CAFE helps moderate the negative effects of volatile fuel prices - and Asian competitor 'agility' for our domestic three.

Critically, that's in regards to both up and down fuel price swings.

******************

Your last - on taxes or CAFE is the real, ugly reality concerning our National interests - and oil..

And lets use our heads here.

National priorities of the most important kind - that benefit us all need to come first.

Some people will skip your entire post and call you a socialist based on what you said in the last bit.

However i agree with your conclusions

[BigAls87Z28]

Originally Posted by 2002 Caddy

GM's not stupid now, but they sure were pretty dumb from 2002-2007 right? Cause they didn't get ready for the gas crunch sooner...

If you realize that GM plans cars some 3-4 years in advance, you could say that cars like the Cruze were in development well before high gas prices, earliest would be Katrina's gas price spike. At that point GM realized that it needed a new engine family and a better compact car.
CAFE didnt dictate for GM to build a BETTER higher quality compact car, the market did.

The problem with this POV is you miss the fundamental truth about gas prices:
1) They are historically "random"... And controlled by foreign nationals... Almost all of whom HATE America and American industry... So, if you try to base your fleet on what gas prices are going to be in 5 years you will ALWAYS be in "catch up" mode (sound familiar?)

Random? Gas prices rise not at random, but durring supply issues, be it real or invented.
Hate America? No, they LOOOOOVE America. Its the ones that hate America also hate the ones that love America.

2) Gas prices in America are some of the lowest in the world... this ENCOURAGES manufactures to build big heavy and inefficient cars and trucks... The answer to your question is YES... IF CAFE were abolished and if gas got back to the $1.80 a gallon range then YES then GM would drop LS9's into EVERYTHING... Trucks WOULD become HUGE as would SUV's (Take a look..circa 2002, H1, Monster Suburbans, Ford Excursion, etc.. THEY DID! You forget the "size" race... Each OE built bigger and bigger UTEs to out do each other) and they would sell like crazy (Again they did!)... The problem with your "just let the market decide" POV is that the lead time to bring a new car to market is about half a decade... By the time you turn your company around to build the new cars that the people now want you will loose ALL of your market share to off shore competitors (hey sound familiar again?)

Agreed, but it doesnt encourage the automakers to build big cars adn trucks. America wanted bigger and larger cars and trucks. Thats what we wanted, and people were willing to pay for it. If gas prices were higher, then Im sure that the evolution of America's great vehicles of the past would have been much different.
Yeah, sure if gas was under 2 bucks still, that people would probably keep buying larger suv's not because GM has a gun to thier head. But you also have to figure that if the economy was also in better shape to where people could afford to buy such high end vehicles, then I would agree, but thats not what you were talking about.
We are talking about what has a greater effect on the production of cars in America, Gas prices or CAFE.
So far, gas prices did more in one year then what CAFE has ever done since the 70's.

Problem is that GM and the other relied on these trucks without paying attention to the rest of the car world. THAT IS GM'S BIGGEST MISTAKE OF THE PAST 25 YEARS!!
GM should have had a better product planning, done what Toyota did and cut costs while keeping quality tops, they would not be in the position they are today.
Like any other investment, diversify. If they did then what they are doing now, we would be looking at a totaly different company.

If you want GM to be competitive with the rest of the world manufactures you have two choices (both bad)
1) You need have gas prices that are on par with average gas prices in Europe and East Asia... OR
2) CAFE...

Take your pick.

Neither.
Problem is GM IS TOPS in just about every market its in or near top.
Look at the change in Europe with Opel/Vaux
Look at the skyrocketing sales of Chevy in Eastern Europe and Asia.
Problem is its home market. Perception problems abound, and thats bigger then any CAFE problem they have currently or in the future.

[member12]

GM should be allowed to build what sells.

If they have a lineup full of heavy trucks and no fuel efficient cars when the next fuel crunch hits, then it's their own fault.

[Caleb02]

i think cafe is a great idea that needs some mods to it. Basically i would have cafe apply to each and every thing that an automaker produces that has an engine. Basically lets take a look at the Esclade ESV, when applying my new cafe rules, all versions of the product must get 35 not just one model version of it. I think it is high time that we rid the usa of cars that are also over 10 years old with no exceptions. All cars must be 150% recyclable. The engine must be on each wheel and no nonemmission engine that cleans the planet must power the rechargeable non batteries (as batteries polute the earth) Also the autos must not use any natural resources, they must use synthetic resources.

[mjd1001]

Originally Posted by uboys

If you would but read the post you would see how the government regs actually had Ford put a small pickup on hold since it made more economic sense to build a bigger one.

If that is the case, then CAFE needs to be edited/rewritten drastically, the solution is not to cancel it.

I may take a lot of heat on this board for saying this...but at times, certain people NEED someone to save them from themself (and to save the rest of us from them). I personally know many people who, if it were not for laws and government regulation, would be throwing litter out the windows when they drive, driving around trucks that get 8 mpg with 450hp, spewing polution becasue they would take off emmisions control on it...etc. Government regulation and 'guidance' is needed...the trick is to not over-regulate individuals/industries...and when something gets to the point where it IS over regulated...to tear up the existing regulations and start over with newer, simpler ones that make sense for current times.

[Caleb02]

cafe needs to be not a avarage but needs to be applied to each and every auto that we make. so all 100 percent of gm autos must get 50mpg or more and run off of biodgreatable waste.