Rumblings & Rants: Saving money, Cutting brands, and what GM SHOULD do to survive

[nadepalma]

Originally Posted by gypsytda

Long.. Yes.. but excellent.

Thank you for the thumbs up!

Originally Posted by gypsytda

I have been saying this for decades.. I have long wondered why on earth GM would make so many twins/triplets, etc.. instead of making ONE vehicle well, they chose to make it 2, 3 or more times poorly.

I also thought Saturn was a mistake.. I still recall the bombardment of advertising when Saturn was born.. what a cult! I also recall my 1st test drive in a Saturn (I love cars.. so I always insist on giving even ones I suspect of being junk the benefit for the doubt).. The glare on the windshield was so bad I could not see through it, the callous salesperson states "oh you will get used to it".. i said so that is reason for the plastic body panels, since you will no doubt get in a wreck from driving this thing? she had no reply.

I would LOVE to see GM dump this hole in the pocket, mistake of an albatross! I would love to see them dedicate their time, energy & money into the rest of the vehicles and start FINALLY making reliable cars that Americans can be proud of again!

I do think the line up should be condensed even more than you mentioned.. I know it is costly to do that kind of a change.. so I recommend it in stages.
1st kill Hummer & Saturn
2ndkill saab, Buick & Pontiac

Simply keep Chevy & Cadillac (and GMC as solely a commercial division.. they perhaps could do a public release of trucks as a special event.. it would create excitement, and allow them to keep the trucks known to the public.. )

Since Pontiacs are essentiall sportier Chevys they could offer a GT or Sport trimm level.. since that is all they are anyhow.

Cadillac would be the luxury line, so they can incorporate the saab & buicks into that group and simplify.

Toyota & Honda are successful because they dedicate their time & energy to a smaller group of vehicles.. this allows them to improve them more frequently as well keep an eye on issues. GM has too many, it is impossible to spot all the issues.. and then to correct on all the multiples of the same vehicle.

So I hope GM will trim the fat and become the company we know they can be! Sadly they just kept making the wrong decisions.. and dumping money overboard..

Yeah, this is a bit more than I would be willing to go, but I see the merit of 'simplification'.

Perhaps whittling it down to Chevrolet, Cadillac, GMC (as commerical brand) - and ONE other domestic-brand?

Regardless, if we were to move forward using just your take on this, then perhaps GM could arguably eliminate these other brands and convert each of their other franchises to Chevy, GMC or Caddy stores. Yes, there would be a GLUT of dealers - but converting them would at least guarentee that every dealership was a full-line facility. Then they could start to offer buyouts for those facilities that overlapped too closely with one another.

If we were to modify your approach - and add a "mid-level brand" - then some of those remaining locations could be stand alone/full-line operations as well (Pontiac, Buick or Saturn -- unless GM did what they do in Europe and brought over the Opel lineup at some point but this would likely never happen).

Regardless, all this speculation makes for wondeful brainstorming...

Originally Posted by gypsytda

Sorry for my babble.. you had so many of my ideas, I was just so thrilled to see it.. and I thank you!
wishing GM success..

Thanks again!! Much appreciated.

[nadepalma]

Originally Posted by Lichtronamo

It's also worth noting again that future products for GMC have been delayed/canned as well. This includes the Zeta based Denali concept and a Lambda based "Ridgeline".

This could be the start of moving GMC away from personal vehicles to professional grade. One of the advantages I see in Sterling selling rebadged Dodge trucks is that it makes for one-stop shopping for fleet manager with preferred vendors.

Good observation as well. If this happens though, I wonder if we'd see many GMC locations shuttered since the volume would arguably NOT be there if GMC were recaste in such a way?

Who knows. But I bet GM is rethinking just about everything now - and I hope they give every idea its due consideration.

[SierraGS]

Originally Posted by nadepalma

Good observation as well. If this happens though, I wonder if we'd see many GMC locations shuttered since the volume would arguably NOT be there if GMC were recaste in such a way?

Who knows. But I bet GM is rethinking just about everything now - and I hope they give every idea its due consideration.

Moving GMC out from BPG would not be a good move, especially if you put three car brands together - what exactly is the point?

You can only do so much with a mid-size car platform and trying to "stretch it" across six (6) car brands - three (3) in the same dealership is lunacy, while you "move" one (1) truck brand away from where it produces more profit all other brands except Chevy to an obscure dealer network that will kill sales and ultimately GM itself.

GM has no need for six (6) car brands - figure this problem out first (use some "lean thinking" for once) then align GMC with the winner(s).

I'll give you the "lean production/manufacturing" answer to GMC - they are not the "root cause" of GM's problem.

(Hint - do some 5 Why's to narrow down the correct answer, start with "Why do brand "X" vehicles sell poorly?"; then try "Why does GM need 6 car brands?")

If GM is going to cut a car brand then cut one (or two), this is the only area where they have an excess of brands that are not delivering to the bottom line - yet they try to "fix" this area by dumping more money into while destroying one that works.

Typical GM management.

[Ed Arcuri]

It makes sense. After all, Toyota only has two lines of cars, right? Toyota and Lexus.
Uh, well, . . . . okay, and Scion. Prius is going to be distinguished as a separate line? Who knew?
No, I didn't count Daihatsu and Hino, after all this is the U.S. and all we know about Toyota is what we see here.
They own a chunk of Subaru, too? Get out! Next thing you'll tell me that Toyota is a Japanese Company.
I agree GM should follow Toyota's lead and cut down to, uh, let's see:seven makes. That should do it, seven.
So, Cadillac, Buick, Pontiac, GMC, Saturn, Chevrolet, and SAAB (or is it Saab, now?). Whoops! Hummer makes 8. There it is: G.M's problem! 8 makes.
Oh well, we all know the Japanese auto makers are smarter than ours are.
Cheers,
Ed

[RB35SLT]

Originally Posted by Ed Arcuri

It makes sense. After all, Toyota only has two lines of cars, right? Toyota and Lexus.
Uh, well, . . . . okay, and Scion. Prius is going to be distinguished as a separate line? Who knew?
No, I didn't count Daihatsu and Hino, after all this is the U.S. and all we know about Toyota is what we see here.
They own a chunk of Subaru, too? Get out! Next thing you'll tell me that Toyota is a Japanese Company.
I agree GM should follow Toyota's lead and cut down to, uh, let's see:seven makes. That should do it, seven.
So, Cadillac, Buick, Pontiac, GMC, Saturn, Chevrolet, and SAAB (or is it Saab, now?). Whoops! Hummer makes 8. There it is: G.M's problem! 8 makes.
Oh well, we all know the Japanese auto makers are smarter than ours are.
Cheers,
Ed

Make it 7 when Hummer is sold...

[CadiEldo67]

Pontiac's new lineup, with a new tag-line "Luxury with Attitude." Sound familiar? Thats what the 2000-02 or so Bonneville had for its model tag line. And what is more appropriate then that? "We Build Excitement"? "Fuel for the Soul"?

The Grand Am-based off of the Chevy Cruze, but with sporty styling, and a 2.0 Ecotec turbo for the top model. (FWD)
The Grand Prix-based off the Opel Insignia, with such a great design by Opel, how could Pontiac mess this one up? (FWD)
The Bonneville-The G8, renamed and with a slightly improved interior. (RWD)

Specialty Vehicles:
Solstice-on SWB Alpha
Firebird-on LWB Alpha
GTO-Coupe version of Bonneville

[amsnare]

With the coperation of the labor unions, the federal government and our people and GM itself, GM can survive. Hopefully Chrysler and Ford can as well.
So far I have seen little or no cooperation.....
Are these people waiting for a bankruptacy to occur ? or for every single vehicle sold in America to be from Asia ??
We need strong national leadership and we have a community organizer and a political hack running for President

[akenaten]

I don't know about the rest of the country but out here in the West I honestly see just as many GMC'c as Chevys. In fact quite often it seems Gmc actually outnumber Chevy's.
By all means get rid of Saturn. Too much money invested for too little return. And let's face it folks: it was started by Roger Smith the man that nearly destroyed GM. Anything with his name on it was bound to fail.
Hummer and Saab should go too.
And I still don't get Pontiac. A mishmash that makes no sense.

[CadiEldo67]

I've come up with my "best" idea yet. Its very simple you see:
Chevy=Toyota/Honda
Saturn=Scion
Pontiac=Nissan
Buick=Acura
Cadillac=Infiniti (ok, Cadillac > Infiniti)
Saab is what Saab should be...duh
GMC is commercial grade only
Hummer belongs to someone else, unfortunately

The big issue with Pontiac was the crumbling of the RWD dream for the brand. So if Nissan is called sporty, and is FWD, why can't Pontiac pull off the same thing, if not better than Nissan and Mazda? But Pontiac and Cadillac should be structured in the same way that Nissan/Infiniti are structured, Ghosn? knows what he's doing.

[schmallz]

GM North America must consolidate to five brands in order to survive.

Chevrolet.
Beat (Micro)
Aveo (Sub-Compact) Gamma
Cobalt (Compact) Delta
Malibu (Mid Size) Epsilon
Impala (Full Size) Lambda
Orlando (Compact Crossover) Delta
Equinox (Mid Size Crossover) Theta
Traverse (Full Size Crossover) Lambda
Camaro (Mid Size Coupe & Ragtop) Zeta
Corvette (Do i really have to say it?)

Pontiac
Lemans (Sub-Compact 5 door) SWB Alpha
Solstice (Sports Car Coupe and Rag Top) SWB Alpha
Grand Am (Compact Sedan and Wagon) LWB Alpha
Trans Am (Compact Coupe and Ragtop) LWB Alpha
Grand Prix (Mid Size Sedan and Wagon) SWB Zeta [G8]
GTO (Mid Size Coupe) SWB Zeta
Bonneville (Full Size Sedan) LWB Zeta [Statesman minus the luxury]
Sport Truck (The G8 ST) LWB Zeta

Buick
Cielo (Compact Sedan) Delta
Lacrosse (Mid Size Sedan) Epsilon
Lucerne (Full Size Sedan) Lambda
?????? (Compact Crossover) Delta
?????? (Mid Size Crossover) Theta
Enclave (Full Size Crossover) Lambda
Velite (Mid Size 2+2 Ragtop) Zeta

Cadillac
ATS (Sub-Compact 5 door) SWB Alpha
BTS (Compact Sedan, Coupe, Hardtop, Wagon) LWB Alpha
CTS (Mid Size Sedan, Coupe, Hardtop, Wagon) SWB Zeta
DTS (Full Size Sedan, Coupe, Wagon) LWB Zeta
FTS (Personal Limo) Ultra Premium Chassis
BTX (Compact Cross Over) LWB Alpha
CTX (Mid Size Cross Over) SWB Zeta
DTX (Full Size Cross Over) LWB Zeta
FTX (Larger Cross Over) Ultra Premium Chassis [Think Escalade ESV]
YLR SWB Alpha Roadster
XLR (But make it a true luxury GT)
ZLR (Cien)

GMC
Canyon (as is)
Sierra (as is)
Yukon (as is)
Suburban (Replace Yukon XL)
Avalanche (Move from Chevy)

Each of the four car brands would be able to stand alone, but GMC would replace all "trucks" and be sold along side any of the car brands at any dealership.

[2002 Caddy]

Originally Posted by nadepalma

Perhaps whittling it down to Chevrolet, Cadillac, GMC (as commerical brand) - and ONE other domestic-brand?

Everyone keeps saying we need to whittle it down to Chevy, Cadillac and there personal fav... My personal fav IS Cadillac... Ever been to a Cadillac dealer lately? well if you aren't in the market for a CTS don't bother... Cadillac will soon be known as the brand with one car. GM is bleeding this brand of product just like all of the others... in 5 years it will be just as damaged as Oldsmobile, Buick, Pontiac, Saturn, SAAB or what have you.

[Xenon]

Originally Posted by Caleb02

GM needs to rename Chevy to GMC as just about every other auto company has a full car line named after themselves:

Ford Motor Company: Ford
Chrysler Holdings LLC: Chrysler
Toyota Motors: Toyota
Hyndai/Kia: Hyndai and Kia (they got 2)
VW: VW
Porsche: Porsche
Fiat: Fiat
Nissan: Nissan
Renault: Renault

So as you can see there are 99% of car companies have a full line named after them. So why doent GM just merge GMC and Chevy into GMC and call it GM and then the clouds will part, Wagner will run for President of USA and win. This is real simple i dont know why people have not thought about this before.

Actually the name is after either the founder of the said company, or the biggest investor of the company. Initally GM was just Buick, but in time the main brand was named Chevrolet because the biggest investor in the brand was named Chevrolet.

[Bravada]

Chevrolet was not an investor. Louis Chevrolet was one of the three brothers (along with Arthur and Gaston), immigrants from Switzerland, who made their names as racing drivers, and were also amateur mechanics. When Durant was ousted from GM by the bankers who weren't pleased with his chaotic management and shady operations, he chose Louis Chevrolet, the most know of the three, to front his new car-building venture, Chevrolet. This took off quickly and by some swift stock operations Durant regained control of GM when he managed to merge Chevrolet with GM.

[Djheartbreak831]

hey GM followers. first post, altho i have been lurking around for a few months here and there. i can see the problem with keeping all of these brands, but at the same time, of course, theres alot of decision making of what to cut and what to save. i agree with alot of the points many have made about whats natural to stay around. of course the Chevy brand will be spared, as well as Cadillac. Buick is the entry level luxury brand and very prominent in Asia, so it would be of interest to keep as it well. now Pontiac is a brand that has a big history with performance, so if they shifted to all performance oriented products as well as maybe its own performance parts dealer, then i guess it could be its own niche brand for performance? idk, im only a noob at this. Saab is essentially a Luxury performance brand that should do well in europe, as many have mentioned here. GMC, while i for one would miss the brand for its alternate line of Trucks and SUVs to Chevrolet's, being put into a medium and heavy duty lineup sounds a much better idea. Saturn, i have a bit of a quibble about. idk, maybe an alternate fuels brand. a sorta all green brand to be available as sort of a test to see what the reaction the American public would do? if it is a success, then i guess implement it onto the other brands instead of doing it all at once and using all the money the Govt loans to them just to see a failed effort go through. im not saying that the alternate fuels wont work, but if they use all theyre money on pushing this alternate fuel line on all their brands only to fail, it would doom indefinitely. using only a portion of it towards Saturn would be a test to see what works and what doesnt would be a better plan. oh and Hummer should be spread across GMC and Chevrolet as niche vehicles.

sorry if my post wasnt too informative or doesnt even make sense. this IS my first post and im not that informative with this sort of topic. just thought id throw an idea.

[cire_1wb]

Here is another configuration that might work:

Chevrolet/Pontiac/GMC:
Chevrolet: Mainstream volume division
* Volt: FWD compact hybrid 5-door (E-flex)
* Aveo: FWD subcompact sedan (Gamma)
* Cruze: FWD compact sedan (Delta)
* Malibu: FWD midsize sedan (LWB Epsilon)
* Metro: FWD subcompact crossover (Gamma)
* Prism: Reassigned and rebadged Pontiac Vibe FWD/AWD compact crossover
* Orlando: FWD compact MPV (Delta)
* Captiva: FWD/AWD compact crossover (SWB Theta)
* Equinox: FWD/AWD midsize crossover (LWB Theta)
* Traverse: FWD/AWD large crossover (Lambda)
Pontiac: Affordable performance division
* LeMans: Rebadged resurrected Holden Torana RWD compact 5-door sports sedan (Alpha)
* Grand Prix: Rebadged next gen downsized Holden Commodore RWD midsize sports sedan (Sigma-Zeta)
* Camaro: RWD sports coupe/convertible (Alpha)
* Corvette: RWD flagship 2-seat sports coupe/convertible (Y-body)
GMC: Truck/SUV division
* Canyon: RWD/AWD compact truck
* Sierra: RWD/AWD fullsize truck
* Trailblazer: RWD/AWD compact SUV (Wrangler competitor)
* Suburban: RWD/AWD fullsize SUV

Saturn/Buick:
Saturn: Premium small hatchback/MPV division
* Corsa: Rebadged next gen Opel Corsa subcompact 3-door/5-door (Gamma)
* Astra: Rebadged next gen Opel Astra compact 3-door/5-door (Delta)
* Meriva: Rebadged next gen Opel Meriva subcompact MPV (Gamma)
* Zafira: Rebadged next gen Opel Zafira compact MPV (Delta)
Buick: Premium volume division (coupes, sedans, wagons, crossovers)
* Cielo: Rebadged next gen Opel Tigra subcompact "TwinTop" roadster (Gamma)
* Skylark: Rebadged next gen Opel Astra compact "TwinTop" coupe (Delta)
* Riviera: Reassigned and restyled next gen Pontiac G6 midsize coupe-cabrio (LWB Epsilon)
* Regal: Rebadged next gen Opel Astra compact sedan/wagon (Delta)
* Invicta: Rebadged Opel Insignia midsize 4-door coupe/wagon (SWB Epsilon)
* LeSabre: Upcoming Epsilon based LaCrosse midsize sedan replacement (LWB Epsilon)
* Rendezvous: Rebadged next gen Opel Antara compact crossover (SWB Theta)
* Centieme: FWD/AWD midsize crossover (LWB Theta)
* Enclave: FWD/AWD large crossover (Lambda)
This setup could also be utilized in China with Opel and Buick. Opel of China could be aligned with Saturn and Buick of China would be aligned with its North American namesake. I gave Buick more products and a higher profile for both regions (U.S. and China) because of its popularity in China and its quality/reliability scores and premium status (compared with Saturn) in the U.S.

Saab/Cadillac:
Saab: Euro luxury division
* 9-1: AWD compact 3-door coupe (Delta)
* 9-3: AWD compact sedan/wagon (Delta)
* 9-5: AWD midsize 3-door coupe (SWB Epsilon)
* 9-7: AWD midsize sedan/wagon (SWB Epsilon)
* 9-2X: AWD compact crossover (Delta)
* 9-4X: AWD midsize crossover (Theta-Premium)
Cadillac: American luxury division
* Calais: RWD/AWD compact sedan/wagon/coupe (Alpha)
* Seville: RWD/AWD midsize sedan/wagon/coupe (Sigma-Zeta)
* Eldorado: RWD flagship hardtop roadster (Y-body)
* Biarritz: AWD midsize crossover (Theta-Premium)
* Escalade: RWD/AWD flagship crossover (Sigma-Zeta)