Precedent says Wagoner should leave

[AMERICA 123]

Originally Posted by 2002 Caddy

A big me too!

When I bought GM shares in 2001/2002 I was a Rick fan and I believed in Ricks BS. I believed him when he said killing Olds would help GM.. It didn't
I believed him when he said that he hired Lutz to build great cars... They built trucks... I believed him when he said badge engineering was stupid and was over... (been to Pontiac lately?)

Long story short... Rick has been THE VERY WORST CEO in GM's history...
And I have share losses of over 80,000 to prove it.

When I joined this forum there were very few "anti-Rick" fans... our numbers are growing... everyday... By my count there are only 3 or four "die hard" Rick fans left... and everyone is looking at you guys with one eyebrow up... like you have an aluminum foil hat...

Why would anyone want to keep Rick? He has FAILED at everything he has done.

Respectfully disagree.

Until the events of the last year or two - or three - depending on how you wish to look at it GM was being brilliantly positioned for the 2010 - 2012 time frame - and was providing some very pleasant surprises along the way up to and including all of 2007 and also in a useable sense although more unevenly distributed due to the ever worsening situation - for 2008.

An example of this is GM's - and Mr Wagoner's unwavering commitment to R&D - something that thru out history the Japanese - and Germans have done - and been applauded for - and the American firms have been castigated for not.

Now, watch, some Toyota asshat will say that obviously, given GM's cash flow situation - which is all this is - a cash flow problem - that was the wrong move.

Well, I don't think so - and furthermore not one single large volume player in the US market OEM is really enjoying a profitable result - virtually none were in position for the events of 2008 - at this point, in all markets around the world.

GM's results when all is considered - including the various strikes this year - when people were still buying cars - has consistently exceeded expectations until Octobers results - which were extremely impacted by the lack of financing options available to the prospects and buyers who did show up.


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6 months from now, I have serious reservations about whether we all will be here on this forum - which has nothing to do with GM or its possible outcomes.

[Buickman]

Originally Posted by AMERICA 123

Respectfully disagree.

Until the events of the last year or two - or three - depending on how you wish to look at it GM was being brilliantly positioned for the 2010 - 2012 time frame - and was providing some very pleasant surprises along the way up to and including all of 2007 and also in a useable sense although more unevenly distributed due to the ever worsening situation - for 2008.

An example of this is GM's - and Mr Wagoner's unwavering commitment to R&D - something that thru out history the Japanese - and Germans have done - and been applauded for - and the American firms have been castigated for not.

Now, watch, some Toyota asshat will say that obviously, given GM's cash flow situation - which is all this is - a cash flow problem - that was the wrong move.

Well, I don't think so - and furthermore not one single large volume player in the US market OEM is really enjoying a profitable result - virtually none were in position for the events of 2008 - at this point, in all markets around the world.

GM's results when all is considered - including the various strikes this year - when people were still buying cars - has consistently exceeded expectations until Octobers results - which were extremely impacted by the lack of financing options available to the prospects and buyers who did show up.


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6 months from now, I have serious reservations about whether we all will be here on this forum - which has nothing to do with GM or its possible outcomes.

you need to read the last few years financial reports. our assets have shrank, our debt has skyrocketed, there are "material weaknesses" in accounting, tens of Billions have been lost, market share has continued to drop, and virtually the enitre value of the company is gone.

if you call that brilliantly positioned, I have to question your sanity.

[rcworker]

I could never be accused of being a Wagnerite, but I think that most people will agree that in the last year or so he has made some (uncharacteristically) bold moves, ie. putting Hummer on the sales block.

The fact remains that it is a slow, almost snail-like pace that seems to be the only way GM bureaucracy can function. Knowing this it was/is Wagner's responsibility to fix this and he failed to do it, or failed to recognize it.

Need examples?
GM missed the market trends , as in timing, for nearly all of the hot market segments in the last decade.
-Third door on Extended-cab trucks...
-Reto-style cars like the PT Cruzer, then later 300C/ Magnum
-the muscle car comeback with Mustang, Charger,
-the return of the hatch-back/wagon

In all of these "fads" GM was caught asleep at the design table, or was GM brass to slow, or just lacking in vision to get in on the trend?

Hard not to point the finger since others were able to meet demand faster.

[Buickman]

in time people will realize that Wagoner actually is a criminal.

[vcs2600]

Originally Posted by rcworker

I could never be accused of being a Wagnerite, but I think that most people will agree that in the last year or so he has made some (uncharacteristically) bold moves, ie. putting Hummer on the sales block.

The fact remains that it is a slow, almost snail-like pace that seems to be the only way GM bureaucracy can function. Knowing this it was/is Wagner's responsibility to fix this and he failed to do it, or failed to recognize it.

Need examples?
GM missed the market trends , as in timing, for nearly all of the hot market segments in the last decade.
-Third door on Extended-cab trucks...
-Reto-style cars like the PT Cruzer, then later 300C/ Magnum
-the muscle car comeback with Mustang, Charger,
-the return of the hatch-back/wagon

In all of these "fads" GM was caught asleep at the design table, or was GM brass to slow, or just lacking in vision to get in on the trend?

Hard not to point the finger since others were able to meet demand faster.

Yeah, even if someone could argue that Wagnoer's financial mangement has been good (or as good as one could expect, which it hasn't), almost everyone is agreement that GM's model development and brand-management is still sorely defective. They've been a "follower" or a "copy-cat' in almost all product categories, rather than a "leader".

They seem sorely out-of-touch with the american consumer, coming out with high-profile flops like the Aztek, SSR and GTO, and doubling-down on Hummer even as there was a huge consumer backlash mounting against the brand. Plus their endless brand repositioning has confused the heck out of Oldsmobile, Saturn, and Pontiac customers. Nothing is managed on longer than a three year plan - cars come and go, nameplates are killed and replaced with things nobody recognizes, and longstanding car segments are allowed to wither without a fight.

Part of the reason for that certainly is because the company is broke and desperate and looking for "the big score". But on a deeper level, IMO it's because Pre-Lutz GM has no gut-feeling for what the consumer wants. And Lutz showed up too late to change that.

[63GrandSport001]

I do have to agree that Lutz has been mostly good for GM however he was just too little too late. I mean it takes 3-5 years to develop a new vehicle from scratch.

Lets be honest GM is just hooked on big vehicles with loads of options and has been for probably about 50 years now. They were not the only ones who got hooked on these vehicles as Ford and Chrysler all followed this same path and got hooked. Its easy to get hooked on such a market I mean Toyota got a taste for it and look at what they did..... they invested a ton of money to the new and huge Tundra and the big SUV thats based off of it. Its also turned into a big mistake for them however they lucked out as they are still mainly a car company instead of a truck/SUV company so there were really just those two over sized and overweight vehicles. Companies get hooked on such vehicles because the profit margins are just huge however this is probably going to be a market at least the full size that no one will touch for some time.

[LeSabre]

Originally Posted by Bvonscott

I'm getting pretty sick and tired of Buickman's personal headhunt for Wagoner.

Frankly, It doesn't bother me one bit.
Wagoner has made a mess of GM for years & heading its downward spiral. He has done more harm than good. Beancounters as Wagoner has been should never be CEO's though there are rare occurances where few beancounters have some or all of the following:

Common Sense, Communication, Creativity, Conviction, Competence, Courage, Character, Charisma & Curiosity to be a good/great leader.

Vision is another thing a leader of a car company or nation needs to have, which is something RIR doesn't have at all. RIR does know how to sell things(usually) or shut them down completely as it is what he has been doing since GM became aware that they were headed for financial trouble. Not only should Rick Wagoner hit the door, he can take all of the idiotic GM board of directors w/him.

As to the CEO's of Ford & Chysler, Mulally can & should stay. He is making good strides at running Ford.
Nardelli was a bad choice to begin with. Cerebrus should & could of made a better choice for the CEO of Chrysler.


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[TriShield]

Originally Posted by mbukukanyau

What does buickman do? His job seems to be an Anti Rick activist.

God knows we need at least one. It's scary the entire site isn't against him considering he's destroyed your favorite automaker.

Most people here are just like GM's stupid board, they will approve any moronic idea for the company and will defend and apologize for their terrible CEO to the bitter end.