The New GM - The Official Press Releases

[DuSpinnst]

Originally Posted by syr74

Wow, thanks Dr. Phil. I do appreciate how you insinuate that I don't know you but you pretend to know me. Take this too seriously? Not by a long shot. I lose no sleep over anything that occurs on this forum, which is why you'll see me in spurts......when the mood strikes. Though it does seem you are always here when I show up, wonder what that says about who is wound too tight?

Naw just bored, you can only look at job boards and work in the yard so much.

I've been in this thread and like two others, that's about it.

[JonnyBoy]

If GM wants to listen to customers (I am one) Bring Back Pontiac and ditch GMC. Its the same damn thing as Chevrolet. They simply have different bodies. Talk about a major waste. Bring back GM Performance. My Opinion GM is wasting its time trying to come back with GM performance no longer in the Mix. If GM stops making performance oriented cars due to the Governments orders they WILL lose customers like Me. Im a Chevy Tech here in Oregon. I've been a Chevy loyalist all my life and i plan to keep it that way but with recent events my interest is beginning to fade. GM Cancelled the Z28. A Car that WOULD"VE SOLD WELL. Talk about rubbin your loyalists the wrong way.

To put it plan it frustrates me that the Number one Automotive Manufacture of 77 years went from Number One to bankrupt in little over a year, due to poor money management by the Brainless CEO and other High wage lazy folks over period of years.

To put it simply this sucks.

[goblue]

Originally Posted by syr74

Wow, thanks Dr. Phil. I do appreciate how you insinuate that I don't know you but you pretend to know me. Take this too seriously? Not by a long shot. I lose no sleep over anything that occurs on this forum, which is why you'll see me in spurts......when the mood strikes. Though it does seem you are always here when I show up, wonder what that says about who is wound too tight?



I disagree. I know countless well educated, up and coming young southern ladies virtually none of whom would consider anything with a Chevy badge. They don't celebrate a the thought of a Ford either, but they don't gag at the notion the way they do when you utter the word Chevrolet.

GM would do far better trying to turn Buick into a mainstream brand, despite the current 'for old folks' image the brand carries on these shores. It is much easier to convince folks that a stodgey brand that builds decent cars has turned hip than it is to convince folks a brand they perceive as building sub par, unreliable cars has turned over a new leaf



You wont get much argument out of me regarding hybrids one way or another despite the perception of Ford as a market leader here since, IMO, they are effectively a marketing ploy that solves nothing. The real battle here will be fought with standard, IC automobiles and in that category Ford obviously has an edge.

You claim GM can get better mpg for less cost with similar performance, but the reality is that you are basing this arguemnt on outgoing engines and technology. Unfortunately for GM, this battle wont be fought or one with the dated engines you cite but with new ones like Ford's lineup of Ecoboost engines. And if the performance of the 3.5L EB is any indication the smaller, four cylinder Ecoboost engines should be real mind blowers.

My only issue with EB thus far is the price tag, Ford is obviously targeting EB V6 equipped models as premium autos sold only in lux'd out trim with awd and, IMO, that is a mistake. The standard awd in a fwd car is a no brainer at these power levels, but I disagree with the 'strictly loaded' scheme entirely

I'm not surprised you disagree. At least I'm honest / unbiased enough to understand that Ford and Chevy are both viewed as tiny notch over Hyundai and Kia. But fine, lets give you Ford for a second. Mercury vs Buick? Cadillac vs Lincoln? GMC vs ??? Overall, if - and yes, its an if - GM can capitalize on the bankruptcy, Ford is going to have a problem. Yes, GM has a long way to go - but Ford's brands are nothing to talk about and could be cut anytime - and rightfully so. A huge swath of chrome does not turn a Fusion into a luxury car.

As far as what these two automakers were renowned for, trucks and SUVs - sure Ford is getting a new engine. GM is getting DI on their already fuel efficient motor. Doesn't look like that game is changing. Hybrids don't mean much now - but they will in the future - and GM is ready with more than a new truck engine. How many GM engines are sporting DI right now? How many at Ford? Powerstroke and Torqushift vs Duramax and Allison? Are you serious?

Ecoboost - sure, would be the first to admit that's a great thing. However, its sub par to what's rolling out of Audi, and so expensive / low volume I'm surprised you brought it up. GM had the same thing on a 4 cyl years ago. It's called the Solstice GT. DI...Turbo...it's nothing new. The 3.0L DI is slated for a turbo and to replace the Saab unit. Big deal. If you want to deal with low volume, the trump card is on a track right now getting ready about the same time Ford decides a V6 Mustang is worthy of an engine better than what launched in the Chevy Astro Van.

[marinerbc]

Originally Posted by lightbrotha2004

I FOR ONE AM GETTING SO SICK AND TIRED EVERY FREAKIN TIME THERE IS A THREAD EVEN REMOTELY CONCERNING WELL ANYTHING SOMEONE BRINGS UP OBAMA.

And that someone would be...uhh..you.

Originally Posted by lightbrotha2004

HE IS DOING 1,000,000,000,000% THAN THAT LAST MORON WHO RAN THE COUNTRY.

I've had posts here deleted for saying far less about your current president than you did about your previous one.

Yet somehow it's ok to Bush bash for 10 or more years, yet say a word about the "untouchable one" and you get edited and/or banned here.

The socialist left in the Excited States reaches far and wide, it seems. No wonder you folks keep losing any war you get into...and drag us along with you. Guess we're as moronic as you are.

[TriShield]

"New" GM sounds just like old GM.

In fact it still has all the same people in charge and the same terrible corporate culture that ruined this once great company.

How will that work any better than "old" GM?

[syr74]

Originally Posted by goblue

I'm not surprised you disagree. At least I'm honest / unbiased enough to understand that Ford and Chevy are both viewed as tiny notch over Hyundai and Kia. But fine, lets give you Ford for a second. Mercury vs Buick? Cadillac vs Lincoln? GMC vs ???

As far as the CTS goes, Caddy has it all over Lincoln without a doubt. Sadly, it appears that the CTS is likely the last car of that type we will see from Caddy for a long time if ever, but I'll give them credit for getting that one done in fine fashion. That said, mainstream, high volume automobiles are going to decide the fate of these companies and between the two mainstream brands I think very few folks outside of a GM forum would choose the Chevy brand as a superior starting point..

Overall, if - and yes, its an if - GM can capitalize on the bankruptcy, Ford is going to have a problem.

I just don't see it.

Yes, GM has a long way to go - but Ford's brands are nothing to talk about and could be cut anytime - and rightfully so. A huge swath of chrome does not turn a Fusion into a luxury car.

I disagree with a lot of what Ford is doing, in fact I could take up pages with some of the hair brained schemes they are just now entertaining. But, overall their plan and current status are both far more solid than are GM's and I fully expect them to survive if not thrive.

GM is getting DI on their already fuel efficient motor. Doesn't look like that game is changing.

At this point absolutely nothing we heard pre bankruptcy is solid until GM says so, particularly not if it might offend Obama's sensibilities.

Hybrids don't mean much now - but they will in the future

I disagree

and GM is ready with more than a new truck engine. How many GM engines are sporting DI right now? How many at Ford? Powerstroke and Torqushift vs Duramax and Allison? Are you serious?

And here we see why you arn't getting it. All I hear is now, now, now. Tell me something, where is GM right now? What did all these engines you are singing praises about do for GM right now? What GM has right now obviously wont save them or they wouldn't be in bankruptcy. What GM has planned for the next two to five matters and, in that arena, Ford absolutely dominates. GM is poised to give us more of the same.

Ecoboost - sure, would be the first to admit that's a great thing. However, its sub par to what's rolling out of Audi, and so expensive / low volume I'm surprised you brought it up.

90 percent of Ford cars are expected to offer Ecoboost in the nest five years and you call that low volume? And I'll agree that the V6 Ecoboost is ridiculously overpriced, but as the four cylinder is where Ford really plans to gain ground I don't see this as doing drastic damage.

GM had the same thing on a 4 cyl years ago. It's called the Solstice GT. DI...Turbo...it's nothing new.

A turbo is not just a turbo and a DI turbo application is not just a DI turbo application. The GM turbo four you reference is, by Fords standard, terribly ineffificent in terms of fuel economy, which is why Ford developed an entirely new line of GTDi four engines rather than use the existing Mazda lineup of GTDi fours which were comparable to what GM had and has.

The realy sad thing is that I suspect we both believe that time will prove me right, you just don't like how this is all going to turn out.

[goblue]

Originally Posted by syr74

As far as the CTS goes, Caddy has it all over Lincoln without a doubt. Sadly, it appears that the CTS is likely the last car of that type we will see from Caddy for a long time if ever, but I'll give them credit for getting that one done in fine fashion. That said, mainstream, high volume automobiles are going to decide the fate of these companies and between the two mainstream brands I think very few folks outside of a GM forum would choose the Chevy brand as a superior starting point..



I just don't see it.



I disagree with a lot of what Ford is doing, in fact I could take up pages with some of the hair brained schemes they are just now entertaining. But, overall their plan and current status are both far more solid than are GM's and I fully expect them to survive if not thrive.



At this point absolutely nothing we heard pre bankruptcy is solid until GM says so, particularly not if it might offend Obama's sensibilities.



I disagree



And here we see why you arn't getting it. All I hear is now, now, now. Tell me something, where is GM right now? What did all these engines you are singing praises about do for GM right now? What GM has right now obviously wont save them or they wouldn't be in bankruptcy. What GM has planned for the next two to five matters and, in that arena, Ford absolutely dominates. GM is poised to give us more of the same.



90 percent of Ford cars are expected to offer Ecoboost in the nest five years and you call that low volume? And I'll agree that the V6 Ecoboost is ridiculously overpriced, but as the four cylinder is where Ford really plans to gain ground I don't see this as doing drastic damage.



A turbo is not just a turbo and a DI turbo application is not just a DI turbo application. The GM turbo four you reference is, by Fords standard, terribly ineffificent in terms of fuel economy, which is why Ford developed an entirely new line of GTDi four engines rather than use the existing Mazda lineup of GTDi fours which were comparable to what GM had and has.

The realy sad thing is that I suspect we both believe that time will prove me right, you just don't like how this is all going to turn out.

Actually, I expect them both to thrive as both figured out the tired, old, low quality way of doing things isn't working, but I also expect Ford to get a little help at some point. The G6 -> Malibu was the turning point for GM. Ford has turned the Fusion into a competitive car, and we'll see if they can spread it over the lineup.

As far as this myth that bankruptcy is putting everything on hold - I just don't see that. They had been cutting like crazy to avoid bankruptcy, now that the failed at that, I expect the product development spigot to reopen - ie the complete opposite of what you're saying. And the irony is Ford fans around the country will be paying for it.

[dratnol]

Originally Posted by JoeT

Yes they would. Thats politics, but in this case it would be deservedly so. His government was at the helm since 2000 and had plenty of time to make the hard decisions that could have helped to avoid not only the bankruptcy of GM and Chrysler, but also of the US banking industry that has sent the world into the worst economic mess it has seen in living memory! A lot of the problems existed even before he was in charge, especially with the sub-prime mess, but he and your Congress chose to sit back and ignore the writing on the wall - that the US was about to run into it hard! Now the world is paying the consequences.

Come on! Obama has been at the helm for less than six months! SIX MONTHS!!! What we are witnessing now was well and truely set in stone long before he took up residents at the White House. Let's leave our political allegencies aside for a moment and look at these events from a non-partisan viewpoint. Thing will appear a lot clearer to everyone.

Uh, ok. First people have tried to bring to light different issues and problems in the past only to be pushed aside. You mention "extreme capitalism" as the cause of the problem today. If you go back to the sub prime mess that you mentioned, that is the antithesis of capitalism. Forcing lending institutions to give high risk loans was and is stupid. Forcing auto makers to deal with CAFE and various regulations that go against the market is also stupid. These are fascist principles that have lead to major failures and this current mess. So what is the solution? Socialism!

A lot of the problems existed even before he was in charge, especially with the sub-prime mess, but he and your Congress chose to sit back and ignore the writing on the wall - that the US was about to run into it hard! Now the world is paying the consequences.

I think that his portion needs to be repeated. You critize the past president and congress and you mention that Obama has been around for six months. You need to keep in mind that he was a member of the very inept congress that you just brought up. I don't recall him jumping up and down to fix anything. Lets keep some objectivity here, ok?

[dratnol]

Originally Posted by syr74

GM would do far better trying to turn Buick into a mainstream brand, despite the current 'for old folks' image the brand carries on these shores. It is much easier to convince folks that a stodgey brand that builds decent cars has turned hip than it is to convince folks a brand they perceive as building sub par, unreliable cars has turned over a new leaf

While you bring up an interesting point, I am not sure that I totally agree. It wasn't that long ago that Hyundai was considered (and still so by some) to be total junk. They have been successful at turning their image around. The problem is that it takes years of excellent product to undo problems from the past (real or not).

I do think that promoting Buick as hip and mainstream would be much easier then launching a new brand (like others wanted to do with Opel). If this is done without the market in mind, a Saturn like backfire can happen. Rushing into things is not the answer. Good product, marketing, and consistency are what GM needs.

[robsaw]

Originally Posted by dratnol

Forcing auto makers to deal with CAFE and various regulations that go against the market is also stupid. These are fascist principles that have lead to major failures and this current mess. So what is the solution? Socialism!

Regulation is not the same as fascism or socialism (not sure which one you think it is). Based on your opinion there would be no pollution regulations, no driver licensing requirements, no safety requirements on vehicles, etc, etc. The market is not a panacea for producing what is good in a more holistic sense that maximizing profits. Regulations come about because a totally unfettered free-market craps in its own bed.

Innovation actually falters in an unregulated environment because there is no pressure to improve the product for safety, pollution or efficiency purposes. This ultimately yields a product that can't be exported and can't compete with imports.