GM's downward spiral: A timeline

[t-rex]

Originally Posted by Citation84

Triumph offered the Dolomite and Toledo: same car one with FWD and one with RWD, but can't remember which.

The Dolomite and Toledo were both RWD, but you were on the right track!

In 1965 Triumph introduced the brilliant Triumph 1300 sedan, a peppy family car with FWD. Quickly lauded by the British motoring press for its handling capabilities, the 1300, along with its bigger, RWD 2000 saloon sibling, launched the "executive sport sedan" segment that today is dominated by BMW et.al. BMW at that time were churning out well-crafted, but dour Teutonic sedans. Leyland's chief engineer, Spen King, was responsible for both designs, and they were penned by italian stylist Michelotti.

But after the Leyland-BMC merger, things got insane. The little BOF Triumph Herald was quite long in the tooth and BL needed a replacement. For some unknown reason BL decided to attach the Herald's driveshaft and rear axle onto the Triumph 1300's body, a conversion made fairly easily because of the car's north-south engine arrangement. At the same time, the 1300 was upgraded with a bigger 1500 engine (which lucky South Africans had been using for some years earlier), a facelift, and the boot was extended a few inches. So for '71 Triumph were offering the Toledo, with RWD and the old 1300's short-trunk body, and the longer-tailed FWD 1500.

Few people realise the fact that Saab has never designed any of its own engines. When the Saab 99 was launched in the late 1960s it was fitted with an engine designed by, and built by, Triumph, with Leyland agreeing to let Saab have the engine exclusively for a few years. But after a few years, Triumph wanted to fit the slant-four unit in their own cars. And this is where it gets confusing. Rather than fit the 1750 twin-carb unit to the 1500, Triumph created a third derivation of this family, marrying the bigger 1500 body with the Toledo's RWD setup, creating the Dolomite. So by 1972, there was the Short-boot/RWD Toledo, Long-boot/FWD 1500, and Long-boot/RWD Dolomite! And people think GM has product issues...

Prudent rationalisation eventually took over, and the 1500 was phased out in favour of a 1500-engined Dolomite, but the cheaper Toledo continued. By '77 the Toledo was gone, and there was a single Dolomite line with 1300, 1500, and 2000 engines (the latter going into the Triumph TR7) with the splended SOHC 16-valve Dolomite Sprint, dynamically a vastly superior car to the first-gen BMW 3 series, topping the range.

By the time the 1980s arrived the pretty Michelotti styling was woefully dated, but Leyland's financial crisis meant no money available for a suitable replacement. Sadly, Leyland was too skinned to even afford minor cosmetic or trim improvements, meaning the 1980 Dolomite was still being sold with the seats and dashboard, along with anachronistic front vent panes, of the original 1965 design.

Leyland had inked a deal with Honda in 1979 to produce a small family sedan of Honda's design, and thus appeared the 1982 Triumph Acclaim, a rebadged Honda Ballade (similar to a Civic sedan of that era) built in Britain. This lasted a mere three years, and the Triumph name slipped into history as BL had become Austin-Rover and the Acclaim's replacement fell under Rover's aegis, and became the Rover 213.

Leyland's inept management, infighting between divisions, and lack of cash flow spelt the death of one of motordom's most respected and cherished brands (sound familiar?). Triumph, along with Alfa Romeo, kicked off the "junior executive express" segment, and sadly slid into oblivion and ultimately death, while BMW became the new benchmark in this segment.

It's a shame that the Germans own the Triumph name. I deeply respect German cars, and even own one, but the teutons will never "get" that je ne sais quoi that made British cars, despite their ills, so appealing in their day.

For years I've dreamt the Indians, the Chinese, or anyone other than Deutschland Inc. (look at how they've ruined Mini and Rolls-Royce), would someday revive the Triumph brand, and return it to its former glory.

[sixspeed]

Originally Posted by t-rex

It's a shame GM screwed up the X-body program. They were really very well-designed cars for their time, lightweight, solid, economical, and affordable, with bags of interior room. Many may be surprised to know the X-cars weighed no more than the smaller J-cars, and had more interior room than the bigger G-bodies. They were killed by atrocious teething problems, some so serious the NHTSA was called in. By the time the problems were fixed, the cars' reputations were destroyed.

Had GM got its midsize car program on the right track by the late 80s, with a cohesive lineup of quality products, I don't think they'd be in the mess they're in today.

Funny you should say that. It about sums up the same old GM. The debbil is in the details.

I make no apologies for my '84 X11. Mid 20's plus MPG from a 100-something horse 173 6 cyl 4 speed manual with no overdrive and a fiberglass cowl induction hood. Fully equivalent of any j ap car of the era and the notchback coupe I had certainly showed GM looking to europe for styling cues.

I got 100k miles plus out of that sweetie and it saw the dealer once, and that was for leaking rear main seal on that 2.8 which was replaced under warranty. Other than the annoyance of the steering rack issues, the car was IMHO no worse than the GM products of the current era.

Just like now, the x body's immediate problems were that it took GM FOREVER to fix the series-killer issues of the brakes and steering.

[Citation84]

T-Rex: You are amazing. Thanks for the history lesson. The British car industry has fascinated me for a long time, especially since seeing the parallels between BMW/Rover and Daimler/ Chrysler as well as BL/GM.

Sixspeed: I loved my 84 Citation. It was pretty, quiet,roomy [2 door notch, champagne and dark brown two tone, mags], and I got it because I was so impressed with my "Father's Oldsmobile" Ciera. Foolishly I traded it and am now looking for another one. [Traded it for an 86 Olds Calais that was 8 years old with 21,000 miles. My little brother is still driving it.]

The 99 Cavalier I bought new was in my driveway because of those two cars. And especially because it was so much like the old Citation.

That Olds really turned my head around about GM cars and I have loved them ever since.

[t-rex]

Citation84, here's a quick pic rundown of the 1300/1500/Toledo/Dolomite family...

Triumph 1300 FWD — 1965 to 1970



Triumph 1500 FWD — 1971 to 1973/1974ish



Triumph Toledo RWD — 1971 to 1976ish



Note the cheap, tiny bumpers fitted; and stubby boot design from the 1300

Triumph Dolomite 1300 & 1500 RWD — 1976/1977 to 1980



When the Toledo was dropped and the range rationalised, the 1300 & 1500 had the two square headlamps, whilst the 1500 HL & 2000 models had the four round headlamps.

Triumph Dolomite 2000 RWD — 1972 to 1980




If you're a BMC/Leyland fan like I am, check this website (and where I got much of my info) out — it's a truly amazing website; nothing on the web comes anywhere close to matching the work this guy's put into it.

http://www.aronline.co.uk/

[Uzzy]

Originally Posted by t-rex

Citation84, here's a quick pic rundown of the 1300/1500/Toledo/Dolomite family...

Triumph 1300 FWD — 1965 to 1970



Triumph 1500 FWD — 1971 to 1973/1974ish



Triumph Toledo RWD — 1971 to 1976ish



Note the cheap, tiny bumpers fitted; and stubby boot design from the 1300

Triumph Dolomite 1300 & 1500 RWD — 1976/1977 to 1980



When the Toledo was dropped and the range rationalised, the 1300 & 1500 had the two square headlamps, whilst the 1500 HL & 2000 models had the four round headlamps.

Triumph Dolomite 2000 RWD — 1972 to 1980




If you're a BMC/Leyland fan like I am, check this website (and where I got much of my info) out — it's a truly amazing website; nothing on the web comes anywhere close to matching the work this guy's put into it.

http://www.aronline.co.uk/

The only question I have is what does that car to do with Rudy Ray Moore? And he was from Arkansas, not Ohio...

[Citation84]

TRex: I've been on that site. It is brilliant. Easy to spend an entire Saturday morning there. Would love to see an Austin Allegro in the wild !!!!

Mostly visit MG Rover Org to keep up on the news since the collapse of Rover post BMW and named my 95 Saturn SL 1 "Austin" after the Austin brand. And have 2 books from "Over There" : "The Cars of British Leyland" and "End Of The Road" which details the Rover collapse.

The story of the demise of the British domestic automobile industry seems to be in the process of being re-played here in the US. It's pretty scary. They have an automotive industry, yes, but what "English" brands are left are now owned by parent companies based elsewhere.

It can happen here and it's really distressing. I don't get the unbridled irrational and unhinged hatred of and glee about the Detroit 2.8's problems on other sites. Losing one or all 3 will have devastating effects on the country. Because they made bad or dumb cars, that's a satisfying, justifiable punishment ?

Everything GM has made has not been all good, but they hasn't been as bad as is being portrayed on the Internet. The current Corolla uses plastics every bit as foul as GM was accused of using. In the 80s. And I haven't seen anyone use anything BUT plastic in their interiors. But everyone's an expert these days and it's easy to bash the biggest guy on the block. I hope should GM fail the haters out there find great happiness in the event, since they worked so hard to make it happen. {sounds like what I read on MG Rover's forums **.

Troubled times. Tough to sort through the PR spin and the blatant hatred out there. Seems GMI is especially balanced: angry and frustrated at the dumb moves GM continues to make and constructive in it's criticism as well as appreciative of the attempt being made to correct things [albeit 20 years too late..].

But if our own NA auto industry collapses who fills the void ? Toyota or China ? Malaysia ? France ? India [okay so I would be interested in a Hindustan Ambassador < back to UK origins again > ], but simply can't relate to the foreign brands. There is no "there" there for me. No legacy [good or bad], no history, nothing that hits a nerve. [Though an old Volvo might make up for it in character !].

GM's a mess, but I have been and am proud of the much maligned GM cars [ION, Cavalier, Citation] I have owned and would hate to lose the choice [or the chance] to buy the Cruze or next Gen Astra or Corsa because GM no longer operates in NA.

My GM cars have done exactly what I have wanted them to do with very few problems [except, perhaps the Calais, which loved alternators and brakes but is still running strong, still looks good and is still tight as a drum].

Thanks for those great pictures. Would love to see these in the wild too. Only in Practical Automobile and on the Internet, I'm afraid.

BTW: on the Austin site:did you notice how much the red Chilean MG's [550 or 770?] taillights resemble Chevy's Cruze ?????