GMI Exclusive: Kappa II Platform Axed From R&D

[zeobandit]

The business reasoning is understandable, but that sucks. The Sky and Solstice are beautiful cars. My wife really wants a Solstice, but we can't justify it since we have a little one now.

[Timekeeper]

Originally Posted by L32 To Go

I can’t believe you people with so many disparaging remarks. Please go back and read what nsap actually said:

1. Now GMI is hearing that the Kappa II program, successor to the current lineup of Kappa roadsters, has been pulled from the product plans.

Kappa platform is not dead. The next generation, Kappa II has been put on hold. Current Kappa platform is an excellent platform, closely similar to the Corvette platform. Kappa platform can easily continue as is for another 6 years, it is that good. The body styling may change but I don’t see why.

2. GMI has been told that when the Pontiac Solstice and Saturn Sky came to the market, GM was losing around $10,000 per unit built.

Please read this carefully. The key part of this sentence is: when the Pontiac Solstice and Sky came to the market. It took three months to ramp-up from 800 Solstices per month to 2000. It took four months for Sky to ramp-up from 180 units to 1100. Losing $10,000 may have been true initially, especially at a starting price of $19,995 for a stripped Solstice. The price of a loaded Sky Redline has crept over 30k since then.

3. Hydra-forming is a costly fabrication method, particularly for vehicles that have such low starting prices and low volume to boot.

Hydroforming is more expensive but it is more suitable for relatively small volume production that does not justify high cost of stamping dies. The high production cost comes mostly from the fact that these cars are largely “hand built” as nsap stated. If GM is not making a bundle of money on these cars, it is at least breaking even in my opinion, at least until somebody comes up with a concrete proof of otherwise.

I would like to set this straight. Kappa is a platform. It has not been cobbled from GM parts bin, it was designed from scratch with necessary stiffness for a RWD convertible. The body shares certain parts such as door handles (a minor item), steering wheel (a corporate item shared by many GM cars), Cobalt instrument cluster, Opel seats, Grand Prix parking lights and Envoy backup lights on a Solstice and probably many unseen functional parts. What is wrong with that? It’s been done before, everybody else is doing it and we will see more of it in the future. But the turbocharged, direct injected 2.0 liter Ecotec was designed especially for Kappa cars, now shared by HHR and Cobalt SS. It has one of the highest output rating per liter and good low end torque too. How we tend to exaggerate.

Solstice and Sky generate strong feelings. People either love them or hate them. They hate them because they are jealous, because they still best sellers, because they can keep up with roadsters costing far more . The press is trying hard to demolish them, not directly, they have their subtle ways. For the last two years they have been piling accolades on Miata as the only true and best roadster.

It is sad that so much negativity is expressed on this supposedly being a GM site.

Thanks for your comments. I too was wondering about all the same things, but hadn't gotten to the end of the posts yet to respond. You are soooooo right!!!!

[KingElvis]

The "halo" car is shown up for what it is: a expensive boondoggle designed to boost the image of...Bob Lutz.

Once again: If you want to sell 500,000 midsize sedans, nobody who would buy one of the 500,000 cares that same badge can also be found on a sexy two seater he can't even contemplate buying.

Does anyone loooking for a cheap econo box rush to the Aveo and think, "Hey these guys also make the Corvette baby! Sold!"

[SVTKAR3]

Originally Posted by jbernie

Keep in mind the Miata/MX5 has been around since 1989 so with the number of years in existance combined with total sales from being the dominant car in class for so long Mazda probably paid of their base costs many years ago and now just need to make the incrimental changes. Overall the body shape has barely changed, slight tweak here and there, a little extra width or length there.

GM has only had the Soltice/Sky for 2 or 3 years so no where near enough time to recoup all costs on such a small build run. To go with this they also needed stylish products to get media attention etc etc, they got people talking about GM products in a positive way (ie long delivery times/high demand) which isn't something you can just pay the media to get.

Look at the decision from a rational point of view, it is a 2 seater, with tight interior dimensions and a trunk that may hold a 12 pack of soda when the top is down. They look great but are pretty useless in many ways. With GM losing so much money per unit, it makes sense to stop a product that doesn't generate enough sales/media hype/etc now so that those costs do not influence the quality of other higher volume vehicles.

I would rather GM cut the Solstice/Sky in an effort to improve the quality/picing/features of vehicles like the Cobalt/HHR/Malibu than to let the really important products suffer.

The Solstice/Sky have served their purpose now it is time to move on and maybe later reintroduce these types of vehicles on a better platform.

Well put my freind, well put.

[CJ Thunder]

Originally Posted by Ming

While it is sad to see it go, I agree with Paul. Considering that GM has had some success in near-stock racing with the Cobalt SS (Gran Am Cup ST Class), one has to wonder if a convertible based off of the Cobalt (with much more attractive styling) would have not accomplished almost the same thing -- instead of the expensive to produce Kappa platform.

Indeed because a Sky is replaceable with a Cobalt.













I heard the Corvette was failing and expensive the first 2 years in. What if they quit that huh? huh?

They are both great cars that people want and instead of improving them, getting costs down they give up. I know money is tight but **** they are throwing enough money away on Saturn all together. For shame, at least we now know what future collectibles are out there.

[mrgto]

What was FOOLISH is that they LIMITED the Kappa to a niche car.....hey, remember the Nomad wagon, imagine how many of those would sell? A RWD MINI fighter? Or even a 4dr version as well......what's the point of bringing out the Solstice coupe then? Stupidity abounds at GM.....god almighty.....

[Lichtronamo]

Originally Posted by Stéphane Dumas

I wonder if they could sold the rights of manufacturing the Kappa platform to a smaller manufacturer just like Cerberus & Chrysler currently study this possibility with the Viper?

Good idea.

[BigAls87Z28]

Originally Posted by BuickBoy

I just have one question, how in the heck can the leadership along with the BOD of this company approve a product line that will loose $10,000 per unit with the plan that SUV margins will make up the difference. Just how many of these product lines did you intend to support off the "SUV TEET"? What is the real profit margin of the Tahoe? Is this some form of take from the rich (SUV) and give to the poor (small two seat roadster) program they are teaching at business school these days? How about this for a concept: if the product does not make money then either fix it or kill it.

That mentality has put GM where it is today, relying on suv's and trucks profit margins and avoiding low profit or no profit compacts.

[Caleb02]

If GM comes out today and says look, we cant justify a RWD Kappa but we can base it off a FWD platform. Then GM says we cant do rwd because of cafe and the low volume that the kappa sells at (70,000 world wide). Would you rather GM kill the kappa or have a fwd kappa? I say offer a kappa with fwd but have an option to have awd.

[Caleb02]

Originally Posted by BigAls87Z28

That mentality has put GM where it is today, relying on suv's and trucks profit margins and avoiding low profit or no profit compacts.

i agree if a product can not make $ then kill it...

[BigAls87Z28]

Originally Posted by spidge

So, to anyone shopping GM in the near future, if you can't shell out enough bucks for a Corvette or Cadillac, you will be condemned to FWD mediocrity.

Ill take this apart in 2 ways.

#1: Dont forget Solstice and Sky for the foreseeable future. Camaro and Camaro Vert. Pontiac G8, as well as a lower priced RWD car from Caddy.

#2: Go ahead and list me down all the other makers of affordable RWD cars, hell...RWD cars overall that make more then GM under 35k?
GM has
Camaro and Vert
Solstice
Sky
CTS and CTS Coupe and Wagon
G8 and G8 ST

Ford? Mustang aaaaaaaaaand...Fleet only Panther cars
Chrysler? 300, Charger, Challenger
Honda? S2000
Toyota? Lexus IS,GS
Nissan? 370Z, G37 coupe and sedan.

So GM kills Kappa 2, so that means the death of all RWD in GM is over. The small, under 50k unit production 2 door roadster life will end within 5 years, and that means that RWD in GM is dead, and that GM is stupid and dead.
Someone explain that to me?
And anyone think thats its possible to build Solstice or Sky off another RWD platform like Alpha?

Everyone keeps making assumptions off Alpha because Caddy is getting it that its going to cost a lot.
Zeta didnt cost a lot, and Alpha will be a cheaper smaller version of Zeta, most likely to use Zeta's rear subframe along with a cheap and easy front strut system.

[GMinTheDriveway]

Kappa in its current incarnation is a failure. The SKY and Solstice are so obviously "vacuous supermodels" which, as they were obviously designed from the outside-in instead of the other way around are a fleeting interest at best. You remember the beautiful woman you wanted to live out your years with on first sight, only to actually talk to her and realize there absolutely must be more or you will live a tortureous life of mental unfulfillment.
I remember Bob Lutz sitting in the Solstice like "look at me, even my big tall self fits!" and every week I have people smaller than Bob try to wedge themselves into their dream car only to discover that the dream is much better than reality.

Rushed to market, these cars make absolutely no sense. They are porn stars of the automotive world. Try to have a meaningful relationship with one and you will find they are better for showing off.

The looks on the outside are great, but until they "figure it out" as in : Make the car fit real humans and have at least a modicum of practicality ala Z4/MX5 this will always be a money losing disappointment of a car(s).

I will not miss them when they are gone one bit and thank God my old boss did not let me buy a SKY and forced me to get my roadster fix from BMW.

Sorry for all you SKY/Solstice owner/lovers, I sincerely hope you enjoy your compromise and (as if I had any say in designing it) I apologize about the ergonomics, top, trunk, leaky differential, bad brake boosting, needless dealer markups, poorly engineered clearances and lack of obviously needed features.

[FierySolstice]

Ok after hearing this, I totally am for GM cutting some brands. They can't focus on all of their brands effectively. I wanted to have a Sky in a couple years. Now there will be no Sky or Solstice. What do I have left? Miata? No way in hell! Why can't they develop a cheaper platform for these two cars? Cut Suburbans and H2's! Not the fun to drive cars!

[paul8488]

People will have to decide... are they a Pontiac fan or a small RWD roadster fan. The former will be happy with a G3, and the latter will buy a Miata. It's simple. Choices for everyone!

Kudos to Mazda... they won this one.

[buildacariwant]

Originally Posted by Bravada

Nope, they are mostly young women who wouldn't consider any other GM brand, research shows. And of course, fleet managers.

this would probably hold true for the G5 G6. and there is probably research to show that many of GMs brands have a specific customer that more then likely would not move to another GM brand.

but some (which may be very few) would move to a chevy niche convertible model (camaro) if pontiac no longer offered a convertible niche model (solstice). rather increase another GM niche product by a small tick or two then lose big time on each kappa as stated.

GM cant keep building everything for everybody. a lot of programs are going to have to give very soon before the whole company implodes on itself from continued losses.