GMI Exclusive: Kappa II Platform Axed From R&D

[BuickBoy]

I just have one question, how in the heck can the leadership along with the BOD of this company approve a product line that will loose $10,000 per unit with the plan that SUV margins will make up the difference. Just how many of these product lines did you intend to support off the "SUV TEET"? What is the real profit margin of the Tahoe? Is this some form of take from the rich (SUV) and give to the poor (small two seat roadster) program they are teaching at business school these days? How about this for a concept: if the product does not make money then either fix it or kill it.

[Buick Riviera]

Why did they loose so much money on these's cars ? I thought they were makeing money on them. Did people wanted them in the first place?

[Buick Riviera]

Originally Posted by paul8488

That's an important question. Not only should GM be able to build low volume vehicles profitably if the competition can, but they should not be starting projects like Kappa if there is no business case for it. We go on about how there are too many bean counters at GM... but in this case, where were they?!? How was a program that would see $10,000 losses get approved??! They knew the cars were going to sticker for around 20 grand... to me this shows a huge problem in GM's engineering AND product planning abilities. At least the SSR was on an existing platform...

I don't think it's a engineering or a product problem, I think it has too do with being Gm it-self, and people not buying the product because of that. And these car's are not gone, the alpha platforum will replace the kappa II Platforum.

[FenwickHockey65]

Originally Posted by Buick Riviera

I don't think it's a engineering or a product problem, I think it has too do with being Gm it-self, and people not buying the product because of that. And these car's are not gone, the alpha platforum will replace the kappa II Platforum.

Again, it's PLATFORM.

And again, I want to know where you got your information, especially after nsap's said over and over again that both cars are DEAD.

[mbukukanyau]

I do not think that they lost soo much money on Kappa.
Kappa is like, Parts bins R us

[Caleb02]

Originally Posted by nsap

GMI Exclusive: Kappa II Platform Axed From R&D
The product plans continue to shuffle at GM.
www.gminsidenews.com
September 1, 2008

It is no secret by now that General Motors has been shaking up its product programs left and right. We first heard of the slashing of the Buick Zeta car, apparent death of the Cadillac Zeta car, and the impending death of a couple GMC product programs. Now GMI is hearing that the Kappa II program, successor to the current lineup of Kappa roadsters, has been pulled from the product plans. The reasons for all of these changes are obvious; uncertain gas prices, an uneasy economy, poor financial situation within the company and an overall product shake up are just a few reasons. on the other hand if the govt regulated everything we would not have to think for our selves....

The Kappa line of products makes the "cut" bill rather easily. GMI has been told that when the Pontiac Solstice and Saturn Sky came to the market, GM was losing around $10,000 per unit built. Needless to say, that is not a money-making product line by any stretch of the imagination. It is not entirely surprising that Kappa has been a money pit of a product program. From the ground up Kappa cars are costly; starting with the frame no less. The Kappa architecture is hydroformed as part of the fabrication process to achieve the dimensions and frame rails needed. Many of the body panels (namely the hood, deck-lid, and fenders) are hydroformed as well. Hydra-forming is a costly fabrication method, particularly for vehicles that have such low starting prices and low volume to boot. Add on the fact that the Kappa vehicles are largely “hand built” cars (at least by today’s standards); it becomes quite evident why GM will likely never get a return on investment with the Kappa products.

There has been speculation throughout the last year that Kappa II would be a more usable platform, supposedly loosely based off of the quite-mainstream Zeta that underpins the new Camaro. Speculation has also arisen in recent years that the next-generation Kappa products would [have been] built at GM’s new plant in Mexico to help offset the staggering loss it has taken with Kappa. Apparently such plans have been scrapped as market conditions have since changed and Kappa II is off the table

What this obviously means is that the Pontiac Solstice, Saturn Sky, Daewoo SX2 and Opel GT roadsters are “once and done” products. All of these vehicles were introduced as “image cars” for their respective brands, which is how GM justified the losses on them. Possibly one generation of the Kappa’s was enough to boost their respective brand’s image?

As always, we want to add that product plans, particularly in today’s world at GM, change constantly. As of late last week though, the Kappa II program was shelved. That does not mean that GM may not open it up tomorrow, next month or a year from now. However, we suspect that unless the financial situation at GM changes dramatically soon, the Kappa II program will likely maintain its “shelved” status.

gm has a history of doing garbage like this. Remember the Pontiac Fiero? That car only had 2 body stlyes. Once GM got the Fiero right, they killed it. Gm is doing the same thing here. Pontiac was going to be RWD until 35mpg cafe and $4 gas. Lets face it smaller cars and smaller engines are the future now, even more so if the Dems win. At some point the govt must wake up and resind all govt regulations on cars. Let the market decide what we want not the govt. If the market wants 20 airbargs people will buy them... If people want hybrids people will buy them Calif. should not mandate them. Next the govt will say you cannot have a car on the road that is over a certain age since it does not meet the current regulations for safty and cafe.

[zete]

Originally Posted by nsap

Nah. I can say with fairly big confidence Solstice is dead.

So what's with the winky? Obviously you're inferring the name is dead, but not the actual concept of a 2-door, 2-seater, RWD roadster.

In the end, if GM kills off the Solstice and any small RWD platform the purpose for Pontiac becomes what?

Sigh.

[ogg vorbis]

Originally Posted by mkwelbornjr

How do other companies make money on small/fun cars and roadsters? I dont see BMW cancelling the Z4's etc.

it's an expensive, unibody car. they engineered the kappa as a baby vette - it was nearly the same size, and could take the same power - but at half the msrp. and then they didn't release any great 2+2 to amortize the cost over more vehicles. it's as if they set out to lose money from the beginning...

just like the fiero, gn, and other great gm cars, i was waiting for this to be cancelled. what's a product's life? 4 years? so with the coupe just introduced, maybe they'll be around until 2010-2012?

[b4z]

Soooooo.......we're still getiting the hardtop next year, right?

Did GM ever put a 6spd manual in the solsitce? Wonder if the Aisin 6sp will fit?

http://www.autoblog.com/2008/03/19/n...e-live-reveal/

[burningsquirrel]

well shoot. i love our sky redline. i was hoping to get it with something better like a 3.6L DI 306hp some day. oh well, that's what mallett is for.

[RedVee8]

Maybe Holden should buy it and produce an Elfin for the world!
Perhaps a Daewoo Coupe could be a goer!

[L32 To Go]

I can’t believe you people with so many disparaging remarks. Please go back and read what nsap actually said:

1. Now GMI is hearing that the Kappa II program, successor to the current lineup of Kappa roadsters, has been pulled from the product plans.

Kappa platform is not dead. The next generation, Kappa II has been put on hold. Current Kappa platform is an excellent platform, closely similar to the Corvette platform. Kappa platform can easily continue as is for another 6 years, it is that good. The body styling may change but I don’t see why.

2. GMI has been told that when the Pontiac Solstice and Saturn Sky came to the market, GM was losing around $10,000 per unit built.

Please read this carefully. The key part of this sentence is: when the Pontiac Solstice and Sky came to the market. It took three months to ramp-up from 800 Solstices per month to 2000. It took four months for Sky to ramp-up from 180 units to 1100. Losing $10,000 may have been true initially, especially at a starting price of $19,995 for a stripped Solstice. The price of a loaded Sky Redline has crept over 30k since then.

3. Hydra-forming is a costly fabrication method, particularly for vehicles that have such low starting prices and low volume to boot.

Hydroforming is more expensive but it is more suitable for relatively small volume production that does not justify high cost of stamping dies. The high production cost comes mostly from the fact that these cars are largely “hand built” as nsap stated. If GM is not making a bundle of money on these cars, it is at least breaking even in my opinion, at least until somebody comes up with a concrete proof of otherwise.

I would like to set this straight. Kappa is a platform. It has not been cobbled from GM parts bin, it was designed from scratch with necessary stiffness for a RWD convertible. The body shares certain parts such as door handles (a minor item), steering wheel (a corporate item shared by many GM cars), Cobalt instrument cluster, Opel seats, Grand Prix parking lights and Envoy backup lights on a Solstice and probably many unseen functional parts. What is wrong with that? It’s been done before, everybody else is doing it and we will see more of it in the future. But the turbocharged, direct injected 2.0 liter Ecotec was designed especially for Kappa cars, now shared by HHR and Cobalt SS. It has one of the highest output rating per liter and good low end torque too. How we tend to exaggerate.

Solstice and Sky generate strong feelings. People either love them or hate them. They hate them because they are jealous, because they still best sellers, because they can keep up with roadsters costing far more . The press is trying hard to demolish them, not directly, they have their subtle ways. For the last two years they have been piling accolades on Miata as the only true and best roadster.

It is sad that so much negativity is expressed on this supposedly being a GM site.

[prototype66]

Originally Posted by L32 To Go

I can’t believe you people with so many disparaging remarks. It is sad that so much negativity is expressed on this supposedly being a GM site.

Sad truth is that it has been getting worse here as of late with all the "Bandwagon" jumpers .
I have noticed the same after the new company took over the site ,all the Bashers and jumpers have gotten worse. It is one thing to give constructive criticism and another to blaitandly bash to get a rise out of ligitamate GM enthusiests.

Anyway.....Sad to here the KII is axed ,the Sky was one of my favorite GMs. Perhapse a less costly 2 seater is in the works and they are actually keeping it quiet this time. Once the Volt project launches that should free up some $$$ and staff to do so properly.

[bone]

I felt the Kappa twins would last about as long as the Fiero did so it is no surprise they are being cut. The Miata,in its third or fourth generation, proves that Japanese manufacturers build sensible products for world markets. Why would I consider a GM niche market product such as Kappa when it doesn't have a useable trunk for heaven's sake. Thank goodness the Corvette survived the first generation. Kappa 2 could have eliminated some of Kappa 1's cost and designed a real trunk. I believe it could be a success.

[Timekeeper]

Originally Posted by HoosierRon

Hydroforming

I get all that about how, but I guess the question remains, Is it cost effective? and what kind of production rate does this have?