GM Ready for Smaller Engines When Customers Are

[HoosierRon]

For those of you who think 4 cylinder cars are dogs:

[camaro_freak]

excellent post! I forgot the Subie is a 4 banger boxer engine sometimes!

[mgescuro]

Originally Posted by a_v_s

The world's steepest street according to the Guiness book of world records is Baldwin Street in New Zealand has an incline of only 19 degrees. Tho some argue that it's record is due to a clerical error because they mixed up percentage grade with degree grade. So it may actually be Canton Ave in Pittsburgh which has a 21 degree incline.

There is no way you can drive a loaded kei car up a 45 degree incline. For reference, the maximum incline that a Hummer H2 can climb is only 31 degrees.

21 degree incline?? That's all?
Come to San Francisco... Filbert & 22nd is 31.5% or so. Another section of Stanyan St. is 33%.
Not to mention that half the City has an incline of >20%....

Look... Smart FourTwo's have no trouble tooling around the hills of the City. Other Kei cars, will have no problem.

[Minnesota Nice]

Say what you want about four cylinders...while there is nothing like driving a V8 and hearing that growl...it can be fun buzzing around.

Four bangers are not what our parents remember them being.

[blkwrxsti]

Originally Posted by mgescuro

21 degree incline?? That's all?
Come to San Francisco... Filbert & 22nd is 31.5% or so. Another section of Stanyan St. is 33%.
Not to mention that half the City has an incline of >20%....

Look... Smart FourTwo's have no trouble tooling around the hills of the City. Other Kei cars, will have no problem.

You're comparing feet to yards - 45 degrees = 100%, 18.4 degrees = 33.3%

Here's a description:
http://www.convert-me.com/bb_en/viewtopic.php?t=494

Here's a picture of Baldwin street:
http://www.bikereader.com/contributo...ley/hills.html
http://www.travelpod.com/travel-phot....jpg/tpod.html

I don't know what the fuss is about - a big V8 car is going to have just as much trouble and downshifting to get up hills like this as a 4 cylinder will. More, if the 4 cylinder car is lighter, has a manual transmission, or if there's snow or ice on the road. The downside of "always there" power is that you have to be able to modulate it when you don't want as much. In my experience, it's easier to get up slippery hills if you have some built in power limit, such as the engine doesn't make max torque below 6000 rpm. That way you can use the entire range of the throttle up to 1800 rpm, and not worry about the back end rolling off the crown as soon as traction is lost. A big V-8 in those conditions forces you to modulate within the first 10% of the throttle map (harder than it sounds, because they usually decide to put a big cam on the throttle to make sure people realize it's a big powerful engine).

[AMcA]

Please, please, please:

Build a small V8. 3 liters? Something like that. Turbo- or supercharge it for high-end applications. With current technology (i.e., the 2.0 turbo 4 @ 130 hp/liter), the turbo version could be pulling close to 400 hp. Naturally aspirated, maybe 300.

There's no reason a V8 can't be that size. The only reason they have to substitute V6s for V8s is that current V8s are large. The only smaller alternatives are V6s.

Cadillacs have to have V8s, at least in the long term.

[E. Haskell]

Originally Posted by HoosierRon

For those of you who think 4 cylinder cars are dogs:

The cars listed aren't dogs, but they aren't good on gas either.

S2000 - 18/25
STI - 17/23
Sky Redline 19/28

The V6 Camaro gets 18/26 and weighs 400-800lbs more!

[44 mpg by 2010]

Originally Posted by mpsrent

Most consumer today seek good performance and fuel economy. The average car buyer doesn't even know what size motor is under their hood. I polled a few people in my office and they really don't know. Their concern was did the motor move the car okay and is it good on gas. ...

I remain amazed that GM has so many good, fuel efficient cars around the world that they don't offer in North America. I don't think the consumer is as much the issue as GM's NA management.

I believe your first paragraph is totally CORRECT! There AVERAGE consumer (not the CAR FAN or FANATIC) could generally care less how many cylinders or cubic liters and engine was ... as long as it delivered smooth quiet REASONABLE acceleration and hauling ability ... provided it does this WITH GREAT FUEL ECONOMY ... truly "FUEL FRUGAL".

Although, I will admit that many have been "encouraged" to believe that more, bigger and faster are "better" and "safer".

In fact this new class of power trains would probably be direct descendants of those EU systems ie, NOT from the current domestic gasoline and diesel families already sold in the US. These are radically different animals.

As far as signal of a changing market goes, IF ... July sales numbers and a projected seasonally adjusted sales rate of 12.5 million with the probability of Det3 domestic market share falling to 40% (or below) resulting in projected annual Det3 sales rate UNDER 5 million units (supported by production of less than 3.5 million US built machines for the US consumer [less than 300k units/month TOTAL US build for ALL of the Det3]) is not understood by GM and the rest of the Det3 ... THEN ... they are beyond HELP of any kind!!!

IF management "has gotten the message" are there enough "loyalists" willing to wait the necessary 30 PLUS months for GMs' product response to the NEED for fuel conserving machines, both LARGE and small, delivery to market???

[44 mpg by 2010]

Originally Posted by E. Haskell

How many Honda/Toyota's have engines smaller than a comparable GM model????

The guy in the article is talking about putting a 4cyl in a CTS.

Where is Honda's 4cyl equipped TL? Where is the 4cyl equipped Avalon?

How is GM behind?

Well, here is Toyota's Avensis, the EU version if the Avalon. It is a 1.8 liter 4 cylinder.
http://www.autocar.co.uk/SpecsPrices...VT-i-T2/49758/

And this is the 2 liter 4 cylinder diesel version.
http://www.autocar.co.uk/SpecsPrices...D-4D-TR/52320/

The closest I could find to the TL is Honda's EU Legend with a 3471cc V6.
http://www.autocar.co.uk/SpecsPrices...5-V6-EX/48407/

You might like to take a look at the details of the diesel Accord.
http://www.autocar.co.uk/SpecsPrices...DTEC-ES/54358/

A word of CAUTION on the Autocar mpg data ... remember to multiply the mpg(Imperial) by 0.833 to get mpg(US).

By the way, if this 2143 cc 4cylinder engine would not be adequate for the CTS ... I think there might be a problem with the CTS. And with it, the CTS would probably get over 40 mpg(US) combined average and probably still be able to do 0-60 in less than 8.5 seconds.
http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2...10/083833.html

[44 mpg by 2010]

Originally Posted by motorman

the people out there who NEED, not just want, better gas mileage,the low income people, can not afford a new car payment just to get better mileage. with cheap leases going away the average car payment will be more than the average low income person can afford so who is GM going to sell all these 4 cylinder cars to ?????. like i have posted before the fuel cost difference between 30 MPG highway which car the impala size gets and 35 MPG highway what 4 cylinder cars get is small compared to a new car payment.

You are right. The economics of moving from 30 mpg to 35 mpg highway is absolutely NOT significant.

However, how does moving from 30 mpg OR 35 mpg highway up to over 42 mpg combined average sound? How about to over 52 mpg combined average?

Do these fuel economies become economically justifiable?

Look up the GM/Vauxhhall products rated 42/51 mpg(US/Imperial) combined cycle and above on the site noted below. Don't forget to check the above 61 mpg(Imperial) combined cycle range [that is above 50 mpg(US)]. I think you will find over 40 vehicles from GM/Vauxhall within these ranges.
http://www.vcacarfueldata.org.uk/sea...lConSearch.asp

By the way, Ford has about 20 vehicles within this range. Interestly, Chrysler has none that I have found.

Please let us know what you think after you have reviewed the info and thought about it.

[E. Haskell]

Originally Posted by 44 mpg by 2010

Well, here is Toyota's Avensis, the EU version if the Avalon. It is a 1.8 liter 4 cylinder.
http://www.autocar.co.uk/SpecsPrices...VT-i-T2/49758/

And this is the 2 liter 4 cylinder diesel version.
http://www.autocar.co.uk/SpecsPrices...D-4D-TR/52320/

The closest I could find to the TL is Honda's EU Legend with a 3471cc V6.
http://www.autocar.co.uk/SpecsPrices...5-V6-EX/48407/

You might like to take a look at the details of the diesel Accord.
http://www.autocar.co.uk/SpecsPrices...DTEC-ES/54358/

A word of CAUTION on the Autocar mpg data ... remember to multiply the mpg(Imperial) by 0.833 to get mpg(US).

By the way, if this 2143 cc 4cylinder engine would not be adequate for the CTS ... I think there might be a problem with the CTS. And with it, the CTS would probably get over 40 mpg(US) combined average and probably still be able to do 0-60 in less than 8.5 seconds.
http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2...10/083833.html

Why are linking to small engines offered in Europe? I want to know what Toyota/Honda have in the US. This will let me know how far behind they are.

[FXjohn]

Originally Posted by E. Haskell

Why are linking to small engines offered in Europe? I want to know what Toyota/Honda have in the US. This will let me know how far behind they are.

Don't get out much? Honda and Toyota offer models in the 4 cyl man transmission type that get anywhere from 4-10 mpg better than say the XFE Cobalt. Not to mention the Prius. Any questions?

[E. Haskell]

Originally Posted by FXjohn

Don't get out much? Honda and Toyota offer models in the 4 cyl man transmission type that get anywhere from 4-10 mpg better than say the XFE Cobalt. Not to mention the Prius. Any questions?

It looks like johnny boy doesn't understand what this thread is about. If I'm not mistaken, it's about putting small engines into larger cars. So Johnny, what large vehicles do Toyota or Honda offer with small engines? Since I don't get out much, please let me know.

Anyway, to entertain your fuel efficiency argument - what Cobalt competitor does Toyota or Honda offer that gets 4-10 MPG better than a Cobalt XFE???? You aren't comparing the Civic hybrid to the non-hybrid Cobalt are ya?

Of note, the Cobalt XFE gets better highway gas mileage than Civic or Corolla (while making significantly more power) and the Cobalt SS gets better gas mileage than Civic Si and Corolla XRS while making A LOT more power.

On the automatic front, the Civic gets 2 MPG better than the Cobalt and the Corolla gets 3 more MPG. But as I mentioned, the Cobalt make 15 more HP than the Civic and 23 more HP than the Corolla.

The only places where Toyota/Honda's MPG is head and shoulders above GM is with the Fit/Yaris vs Aveo and with their small hybrids (Civic/Prius) because GM doesn't offer any.

[FXjohn]

A civic 4 cylinder manual can get 40mpg no problem. The Yaris also as you mentioned. I also wouldn't be surprised if the corolla still gets 40 in 4 cyl manual mode.
These are the benchmarks, you also glossed over the Prius.
It;s all about mileage and I hope to see cars like the Ford Fiesta soon, otherwise i may buy a Civic instead of a Cobalt XFE which I read is only available for the rest of this year.
GM needs better mileage cars, they're trying but they need more. DI across the board is mandatory.
Does anyone know the cutoff date for ordering a cobalt xfe?

[E. Haskell]

Originally Posted by FXjohn

A civic 4 cylinder manual can get 40mpg no problem. The Yaris also as you mentioned. I also wouldn't be surprised if the corolla still gets 40 in 4 cyl manual mode.

We have several members here that report getting 40MPG in Cobalts. The EPA says that some Cobalts get better mileage than Civic/Corolla and some variations get 2/3 MPG less. Toyota and Honda haven't exactly reinvented the wheel.

you also glossed over the Prius.

What do you want me to say about it? The Prius is one area where Toyota is head and shoulders above GM. However, I doubt the Prius is what makes Toyota so much money.