GM Ready for Smaller Engines When Customers Are

[Mcmflow]

Originally Posted by motorman

not if the price of gasoline keeps going down. like i posted before i lived thru the 70s when there was no gasoline and long lines but it came back just like the prices will come back down to where the should be arounf $3.50 a gallon. what do you think will happen if a person goes out and buys a 4 cylinder car and does not get that much better MPG,they are going to be pissed. people who are buying hondas and toyotas and not buying cobalts is because consumer magazine tell them not to buy GM because their 4 cylinder engine is noisy even if it had a better warranty and gets better MPG.

How far down do you think the price of gas is going to go? Below $3? I think getting up to $4 a gallon has put peoples mind set in Fuel sipping mode, and that isn't going to change for a while. Prices would have to drop like a rock and stay there.
If they go and buy a 4cyl and don't get much better MPG? What are we comparing here? V6 to 4cyl or V8 to 4cyl?

So what is your opposition to putting out some smaller engines that get good MPG and letting the market decide? Just like MING recalled, 4cyl's sales have doubled since last year. I don't understand the 'no.....no smaller engines!!!!', you don't have to buy one, but I think a lot of people will buy them.

[Ming]

Originally Posted by Mcmflow

So what is your opposition to putting out some smaller engines that get good MPG and letting the market decide? Just like MING recalled, 4cyl's sales have doubled since last year. I don't understand the 'no.....no smaller engines!!!!', you don't have to buy one, but I think a lot of people will buy them.

Not to speak for motorman, but for some, 4-cylinders will always mean weak, underpowered Chevettes and Pintos, and you'll never convince them of their value in other vehicles, no matter how much horsepower ratings and technology might change over the decades.

[Timekeeper]

"Miss Jones take a memo"!

Dear Rick,
We are ready you moron!

Signed,
The impatient consumers of North America.

[ogg vorbis]

Originally Posted by HoosierRon

And one more thing. If Cadillac could do a turbocharged engine, and I quote, "today", why are we not going to see a Beat for 4 years?

probably because the beat is still in development, while the caddi and lnf are already certified.

about V6: i've been saying for a while that gm needs a new ohv v6. if it's going to be turbocharged anyway, why waste money on a dohc when the end result will be nearly the same?? ohv is lighter, more compact, and less epxensive to produce. the eaton tvs1900 will make 500+ hp on a 4.5L, and aftermarket turbos can easily push that to 700+ hp on pump gas (vs similar systems on buick 3.8).

the neat thing about turbocharging is you can lean out the mixture considerably using gdi, and get incredible bsfc. and it works better the higher the boost (1.4+ bar)

[a_v_s]

Originally Posted by Ming

That's a stereotype that is bred by what we are familiar with. I rode in a fully loaded (a full bed and 3 passengers), 3-cylinder, turbocharged 660cc Kei (mini) truck up a STEEP (edit) incline in Nagasaki, Japan, and that little truck booked like a crazy horse.

The world's steepest street according to the Guiness book of world records is Baldwin Street in New Zealand has an incline of only 19 degrees. Tho some argue that it's record is due to a clerical error because they mixed up percentage grade with degree grade. So it may actually be Canton Ave in Pittsburgh which has a 21 degree incline.

There is no way you can drive a loaded kei car up a 45 degree incline. For reference, the maximum incline that a Hummer H2 can climb is only 31 degrees.

[Beau]

"That's a stereotype that is bred by what we are familiar with. I rode in a fully loaded (a full bed and 3 passengers), 3-cylinder, turbocharged 660cc Kei (mini) truck up a STEEP incline in Nagasaki, Japan, and that little truck booked like a crazy horse."

Ming, I like you brother, but you make the most bias claims ever. I don't buy into that garbage.
*Edit, I wrote this before seeing those incline facts that the person above posted, and it's things like that, that completely discredit your bias for these really *** cars/ The Wagon RR, and all of these "AWESOME" Japanese micros... Dude they are garbage... The "Scooting" sensation you might have felt was due to the fact that 4 gear brings you to 68 mph... Soo.... No then

[blkwrxsti]

Originally Posted by Chaz_23

So by that logic we should be elated if a V8 makes more that 200 hp, because well, in 1980...
We're in model year 2009. The CTS would be laughed out of stores if they put a 4 cylinder in there.

Strange, because Audi sells thousands of A4s every months, apparently those customers are laughing them out of the stores. I think they had a 30% increase in sales in June on just the A4s. 211 hp turbo 4 by the way.

I know the Lexus IS250 comes with a 204 hp small V6

The Acura TSX actually lost 4 horsepower when Acura introduced their second generation TSX, so it has right around 200 horsepower.

Sounds like Caddy is the only one scared to jump. Believe it or not, some luxury car buyers value efficiency and quiet over maximum speed and power. Either way, you'd think if those other companies figured out how to make it work, Caddy marketing could figure out how to sell it - instead they try to convince customers they need the 304 hp v6...

[Ming]

Originally Posted by a_v_s

There is no way you can drive a loaded kei car up a 45 degree incline. For reference, the maximum incline that a Hummer H2 can climb is only 31 degrees.

Ha, LOL, well, it sure SEEMED like it. I'll try to post a photo of what the actual incline was like.



Not the right countries (below), but the closest shots I could find (more like the one on the right, but with a paved road like the left) - now imagine a wall carved out of the mountain on one side, and a slightly narrower road, twisting up along the bowl like mountain formations around the city of Nagasaki, where people live up on the mountainsides (like my wife's family).

My brother in law's little kei truck's engine protested, yes, but it shot us up that hill like nobody's business. And scared me half to death. The back was filled with some seafood boxes, and his wife was driving like a NYC taxi driver on a road where suddenly you'd have to somehow make way for oncoming traffic down the hill.

No one can tell me that 4-cylinders are weak up hills after that experience with a...3-cylinder. But like I said before, it's the vehicle, and the engineering. Put a wimpy, outdated 4-cyl. in a Crown Vic, and no good will come of it.

Originally Posted by Beau

"That's a stereotype that is bred by what we are familiar with. I rode in a fully loaded (a full bed and 3 passengers), 3-cylinder, turbocharged 660cc Kei (mini) truck up a STEEP incline in Nagasaki, Japan, and that little truck booked like a crazy horse."

Ming, I like you brother, but you make the most bias claims ever. I don't buy into that garbage.

Hey, hey give me a chance to respond, brother!

[Rocket 88]

Originally Posted by motorman

the people out there who NEED, not just want, better gas mileage,the low income people, can not afford a new car payment just to get better mileage. with cheap leases going away the average car payment will be more than the average low income person can afford so who is GM going to sell all these 4 cylinder cars to ?????. like i have posted before the fuel cost difference between 30 MPG highway which car the impala size gets and 35 MPG highway what 4 cylinder cars get is small compared to a new car payment.

Originally Posted by Mcmflow

If people out there were actually doing the math, they wouldn't have dumped their SUV's and trucks for massive losses to buy Corolla's and Civic's the last few months. That's just it though, most people don't sit down and figure it out. In the mean time while GM is waiting for the customers to tell them they want small engines toyota and honda are cleaning up.
People's mind set have changed, and are going to be stuck in fuel efficient mode for years to come. GM needs to act now!!!

No disrespect, but I think you guys are way over analyzing this.

It doesn't matter that the Impala gets 30 mpg on the hwy. In mixed driving it is not going to return that. A smaller vehicle with a 4 cylinder engine can return 30 mpg or better in mixed driving.

Sure even at $4 a gallon the math doesn't make it financially worthwhile to dump an SUV and buy a Cobalt XFE, but not everyone buying 4 cylinders is heavily upside down on a Sivlerado or Tahoe. For a lot of folks its just time to buy a new car. When they do, and in questionable economic times they want better gas mileage. They also often save money on insurance.

But really if we used math as the arugument the average American wouldn't be keeping their car for only a few years. People would be driving them for 10 to 15 years.

You need to look at like this: Betamax may have been technologically better then VHS. Consumers prefered VHS. Beta is extinct. Period. Many consumers want 4 cylinder cars. GM sells a lot of them already. Give the Consumer what they want. Plus they can still get a V6 or V8 in many models.

[usa1]

Honda sure must feel stupid for sticking with a high fuel economy philosophy with their products. Too bad no customers are looking at their cars. Yep, better to wait to install lower horsepower/high fuel economy cars until customer demand them.

I said years ago GM should bring out a Ecotec line of engines that were tuned for high fuel economy and NOT high HP. Does everyone need/want a 150 HP Cobalt? How about a 100 HP Cobalt that got 45 MPG? We used to live with cars that made under 70 HP in the country in the 1970's. We will get used to the idea of lower HP again.

Mark

[Beau]

I've got to be honest though, I absolutley hate the TSX. Its Completley! gutless... I drove a 6MT and I was waiting for that infamous Vtec to kick in, to give me a thrill, and I kept winding it out... 7000, 7500, power dropping off fast, 7800... Yep. Uhh, what happen? Oh I know what happen, its a car that I'll never buy.

[Mcmflow]

Originally Posted by Ming

Not to speak for motorman, but for some, 4-cylinders will always mean weak, underpowered Chevettes and Pintos, and you'll never convince them of their value in other vehicles, no matter how much horsepower ratings and technology might change over the decades.

That's true, and if you are someone who hasn't driven a 4cyl in decades then why would you think any different. Obviously 4cyl doesn't make sense in some auto's, but there are a lot that would do just fine with them.

I have had 4cyl cars/ trucks for the past 10 years and they work great for me. Plenty of power. Had a 2002 Impala with the 3.4 V6, a lot of 4cyls now have more power than it did, but when we bought the 08 Accord we went for the V6, the 4cyl was great, but just had that want for the V6.

I understand where Motorman is coming from...after all we bought the V6, because we wanted it, and the MPG was only 2 difference between the two, if it had been 5 or more, we might have been the other way. I would like the option thought for my daily driver to have a smaller, better MPG engine....thats what I want in my commuter.

[Mcmflow]

Originally Posted by Rocket 88

No disrespect, but I think you guys are way over analyzing this.

It doesn't matter that the Impala gets 30 mpg on the hwy. In mixed driving it is not going to return that. A smaller vehicle with a 4 cylinder engine can return 30 mpg or better in mixed driving.

Sure even at $4 a gallon the math doesn't make it financially worthwhile to dump an SUV and buy a Cobalt XFE, but not everyone buying 4 cylinders is heavily upside down on a Sivlerado or Tahoe. For a lot of folks its just time to buy a new car. When they do, and in questionable economic times they want better gas mileage. They also often save money on insurance.

But really if we used math as the arugument the average American wouldn't be keeping their car for only a few years. People would be driving them for 10 to 15 years.

You need to look at like this: Betamax may have been technologically better then VHS. Consumers prefered VHS. Beta is extinct. Period. Many consumers want 4 cylinder cars. GM sells a lot of them already. Give the Consumer what they want. Plus they can still get a V6 or V8 in many models.

You hit it right on!

[Extreme4x4]

Originally Posted by Rocket 88

No disrespect, but I think you guys are way over analyzing this.

It doesn't matter that the Impala gets 30 mpg on the hwy. In mixed driving it is not going to return that. A smaller vehicle with a 4 cylinder engine can return 30 mpg or better in mixed driving.

Sure even at $4 a gallon the math doesn't make it financially worthwhile to dump an SUV and buy a Cobalt XFE, but not everyone buying 4 cylinders is heavily upside down on a Sivlerado or Tahoe. For a lot of folks its just time to buy a new car. When they do, and in questionable economic times they want better gas mileage. They also often save money on insurance.

But really if we used math as the arugument the average American wouldn't be keeping their car for only a few years. People would be driving them for 10 to 15 years.

You need to look at like this: Betamax may have been technologically better then VHS. Consumers prefered VHS. Beta is extinct. Period. Many consumers want 4 cylinder cars. GM sells a lot of them already. Give the Consumer what they want. Plus they can still get a V6 or V8 in many models.

Excellent post !!!!

Motorman, you are looking at this as an all or nothing proposition............ much like GM does. The point here is balance. Give the customers that want the 4cyl's............... 4cyl's. Is that really too much to ask??? You will still have V6's and V8's for those who want, and can afford them.

You do not tell a huge chunk of the American public that you do not care what they "want." I say want, because I also agree that alot of people are making stupid money decisions. However, GM is not the moral compass of the country............ so nobody wants to hear it. All it does is make GM look stupid and out of touch with the realities of today.

People want to know why there is so much GM hate out there............... well, all you have to do is look at stupid articles like this. They bring it on themselves. They should just be honest and say "hey, we can't make money on small cars right now........... but we can give you some great midsize cars that get great economy, until we figure out the small car thing. Thanks for your patience."

Frankly, nobody at GM should be allowed to talk to the press at all. All they do is stick their foot in their mouth every time they do.

Motorman, I am sure that you could get a job at GM............ you think just like they do.

[E. Haskell]

Originally Posted by usa1

Honda sure must feel stupid for sticking with a high fuel economy philosophy with their products. Too bad no customers are looking at their cars. Yep, better to wait to install lower horsepower/high fuel economy cars until customer demand them.

Outside of the Fit vs Aveo, Honda's cars are really no more fuel efficient than GM's cars - maybe a couple MPG here or there, but nothing revolutionary.

I said years ago GM should bring out a Ecotec line of engines that were tuned for high fuel economy and NOT high HP. Does everyone need/want a 150 HP Cobalt? How about a 100 HP Cobalt that got 45 MPG? We used to live with cars that made under 70 HP in the country in the 1970's. We will get used to the idea of lower HP again.

Hmm, with today's compact cars weighing in at 3000+ lbs, I'm not sure how people would respond to 100hp....0-60 would be what - over 12 seconds?