GM posts $15.5 billion 2nd-quarter loss

[baloo]

Originally Posted by jry

Wait a minute. I thought they beat some of the Asian companies in the amount of 30 MPG and above vehicles.

Which is not a terribly useful metric because it depends on what you consider a separate model, and it ignores city mileage and _how much_ over 30 mpg they're getting on the highway.

[fp115]

Originally Posted by baloo

Which is not a terribly useful metric because it depends on what you consider a separate model, and it ignores city mileage and _how much_ over 30 mpg they're getting on the highway.

GM has some of the most fuel efficient vehicles, but the reason they get killed in CAFE is simply because of the amount of trucks still being sold. Look at Chevrolet's mpg average with Toyota and Chevy is way higher.

[psece]

Originally Posted by fp115

GM has some of the most fuel efficient vehicles, but the reason they get killed in CAFE is simply because of the amount of trucks still being sold. Look at Chevrolet's mpg average with Toyota and Chevy is way higher.

It will go up this year....

[fp115]

Originally Posted by psece

It will go up this year....

Again, what is your point, so will Chevys.

[psece]

Originally Posted by fp115

Again, what is your point, so will Chevys.

Sorry, I should have been more specific. GM's will go up this year. If you look at overall product mix, GM had more trucks/SUV's going against its CAFE than Toyota did. So, it will definitely go up quicker than Toyota's CAFE because of the tanking that trucks/SUV's have done this year.

Where they do get hurt is they don't have a Yaris/Scion competitor that averages above 30 MPG combined. 2010 can't get here soon enough.

[fp115]

Originally Posted by psece

Sorry, I should have been more specific. GM's will go up this year. If you look at overall product mix, GM had more trucks/SUV's going against its CAFE than Toyota did. So, it will definitely go up quicker than Toyota's CAFE because of the tanking that trucks/SUV's have done this year.

Where they do get hurt is they don't have a Yaris/Scion competitor that averages above 30 MPG combined. 2010 can't get here soon enough.

Well Scion is going to take the can very soon (this year I believe?). GM's truck sales are way down and Toyota hasn't ever sold that many trucks. GM is also releasing much more fuel efficient cars, all of which will get GM way up... maybe even past MINI?

Yes GM does need a mini car, but with the amount of sales account for that class, I would rather see a much better entry level than something which costs just as much or where you force people to pay for their warranty every few months (Smart).

[PhishPhood]

Originally Posted by fp115

GM has some of the most fuel efficient vehicles, but the reason they get killed in CAFE is simply because of the amount of trucks still being sold. Look at Chevrolet's mpg average with Toyota and Chevy is way higher.

This is both true and not true at the same time.

Chevy has a greater number of models with a higher FE value, City or Hwy.
Toyota sells a greater number of actual vehicles with a higher FE value, City or Hwy.

[fp115]

Originally Posted by PhishPhood

This is both true and not true at the same time.

Chevy has a greater number of models with a higher FE value, City or Hwy.
Toyota sells a greater number of actual vehicles with a higher FE value, City or Hwy.

Yes but CAFE goes based on sale output and not actual models. If you sell 100 cars at 1,000,000 mpg but 5 million cars at 20 mpg, you average will be something like 21 mpg. (Don't try correcting me, I know its wrong). But if you look at Toyota... they have just as many vehicles that are not at all fuel efficient, if not more than Chevrolet. Tundra, Highlander, Sequoia, Venza, Tacoma, FJ Cruiser, 4Runner, Land Cruiser, Sienna, and Solara. Those aren't exactly the most fuel efficient vehicles in their class... They don't sell great, but enough to bring down the average. While GM sells a load of Aveos and Cobalts, those are really the ones that bring up the average a lot.

[Geotpf]

Originally Posted by fp115

Yes but CAFE goes based on sale output and not actual models. If you sell 100 cars at 1,000,000 mpg but 5 million cars at 20 mpg, you average will be something like 21 mpg. (Don't try correcting me, I know its wrong). But if you look at Toyota... they have just as many vehicles that are not at all fuel efficient, if not more than Chevrolet. Tundra, Highlander, Sequoia, Venza, Tacoma, FJ Cruiser, 4Runner, Land Cruiser, Sienna, and Solara. Those aren't exactly the most fuel efficient vehicles in their class... They don't sell great, but enough to bring down the average. While GM sells a load of Aveos and Cobalts, those are really the ones that bring up the average a lot.

Toyota (and Honda) always beat the CAFE numbers by a lot. The Detroit 3 always make them by the skin of their teeth. The German luxury makers (BMW, Mercedes, Porsche) usually fail and pay fines.

GM does not sell loads of things like Aveos and Cobalts, when compared to sales of Yarises/Corollas/Camrys/Matrixes/Priuses or Fits/Civics/Accords. GM's car sales are now lower than Toyota's by a lot (in July, GM sold 105k cars and Toyota sold 128k). In contrast, GM sells many more trucks than Toyota (GM sold 129k trucks and Toyota sold 69k in the same time period).

Plus, keep in mind that there are three CAFE numbers-imported cars, domestic (NAFTA-land, so Mexican and Canadian cars count) cars, and "light trucks", which includes vans, SUVs, and pickups, under a certain weight (some vehicles, such as the Hummer H2, weigh too much and don't count under CAFE at all) made anywhere. Actually, the Bush administration recently made the "light truck" CAFE number even more complicated. Also, making a vehicle E85 compatible gives bonus CAFE points (the Detroit 3 love this loophole). Now, while Toyota has a few models that are huge, sales for those models are mostly very small (for example, Toyota sold 285 Land Cruisers in July-and that was up from 163 in July 07). They also make several SUVs that get exceptional mileage (the hybrid Highlander and Lexus RX 400h, and the non-hybrid RAV4).

[fp115]

Originally Posted by Geotpf

Toyota (and Honda) always beat the CAFE numbers by a lot. The Detroit 3 always make them by the skin of their teeth. The German luxury makers (BMW, Mercedes, Porsche) usually fail and pay fines.

GM does not sell loads of things like Aveos and Cobalts, when compared to sales of Yarises/Corollas/Camrys/Matrixes/Priuses or Fits/Civics/Accords. GM's car sales are now lower than Toyota's by a lot (in July, GM sold 105k cars and Toyota sold 128k). In contrast, GM sells many more trucks than Toyota (GM sold 129k trucks and Toyota sold 69k in the same time period).

Plus, keep in mind that there are three CAFE numbers-imported cars, domestic (NAFTA-land, so Mexican and Canadian cars count) cars, and "light trucks", which includes vans, SUVs, and pickups, under a certain weight (some vehicles, such as the Hummer H2, weigh too much and don't count under CAFE at all) made anywhere. Actually, the Bush administration recently made the "light truck" CAFE number even more complicated. Also, making a vehicle E85 compatible gives bonus CAFE points (the Detroit 3 love this loophole). Now, while Toyota has a few models that are huge, sales for those models are mostly very small (for example, Toyota sold 285 Land Cruisers in July-and that was up from 163 in July 07). They also make several SUVs that get exceptional mileage (the hybrid Highlander and Lexus RX 400h, and the non-hybrid RAV4).

Not really much of a point to say anything other than this:
http://autos.aol.com/article/green/_...11132109990002

[vibecar]

Originally Posted by Pinnacle

Everyone here talks about managment and what they should keep or sell etc. Anyone ever consider the "image" GM has? Everyone I have talked to has a negative to say about the cars! I work at a dealership and ask people "hey why not buy a GM?" and the answers I get are always negative, why would I buy GM junk? Did you here the Malibu is the NA car of the year? Ya, its still a GM! these are the answers I get! Its like its implanted in peoples heads that GM is crap. I think this is one of the things that needs to change.

I agree, you can talk about re-arranging the brands and cars all you want, customers have left GM years ago, most of them after bad experiences with GM cars. They found good stuff elsewhere and in their mind, GM is crap anyway, they don't even consider it. Now, most people think GM will bankrupt, nothing to help it's image!

That being said, i would be more drastic. Being careful and not wanting to hurt "loyal customers", dealers and feelings has put GM where it is today. The brands have been losing ground for years anyway!

GMC is useless in 2008, most people can't tell the real difference between GMC and Chevy Truck. GM should cut GMC, sell Saab and Hummer. Saturn, Buick and Pontiac... not sure yet. Every dealership should carry all the brands, eliminating the need for overlaps like Cobalt/G5 to accomodate dealers without a compact car or things like that...

[baloo]

Originally Posted by fp115

Not really much of a point to say anything other than this:
http://autos.aol.com/article/green/_...11132109990002

As I said, the number of models is a pretty useless metric. Chevy for example counts the Aveo, Aveo 5, Cobalt and Cobalt XFE as 4 separate models.

Toyota could go and split the Yaris into 5 different trim level "models" and gain 3 mpg just by changing the names. That's a silly way to measure the fleet fuel economy.

[fp115]

Originally Posted by baloo

As I said, the number of models is a pretty useless metric. Chevy for example counts the Aveo, Aveo 5, Cobalt and Cobalt XFE as 4 separate models.

Toyota could go and split the Yaris into 5 different trim level "models" and gain 3 mpg just by changing the names. That's a silly way to measure the fleet fuel economy.

Thats because they are 2 different models. Toyota does the same thing.

[baloo]

Originally Posted by fp115

Thats because they are 2 different models. Toyota does the same thing.

No, they don't. The Yaris counts as one model, the Aveo counts as two...makes no sense. Again, the number of models is a silly way to measure fuel efficiency.

[fp115]

Clearly you aren't getting the point. Especially when the Aveo's sales are up more than 17% in July (23% in Canada I believe) and Cobalt is also up 5%, Malibu is up 79%. I've never seen any car company consider a sedan and a coupe as the same vehicle, but I am done with this discussion. They also consider a hybrid a different vehicle, not just a different trim. Toyota does it, Ford does it, everyone does. These are just Chevy sales, Saturn saw 34% increase in sales with the Aura in the US (24% in Canada) and the Astra grew 75% compared to June in Canada.

Corporate MPG is NOT calculated based on the number of models but sales of the models and their MPG. Already put out the formula to calculating it above.