GM orders 100,000 Hitachi Lithium-Ion Batteries BAS+ comming soon

[goblue]

Originally Posted by AMERICA 123

Well, lookie here.

Poor stormwatcher.



http://www.reuters.com/article/marke...27696420090704

47,800 $ US dollars - and with those poor performance numbers that the VOLT and related will beat - 2 years earlier.

Whew.

See, Long Beach by '20 and Toyota City by '30 - in the latest and greatest version of the VOLT is now forming right before your very eyes.

Game set match.

Stormwatcher - the game is different this time around. The feds are going to force high MPG. They've got a supermajority now with 60 in the Senate. The economy will come back and fuel costs will skyrocket. The gov't is also killing diesels - so all of the sudden the 2 hybrid systems you state are irrelevant are right in the forefront. BAS+ and the 2 mode.

Toyota (and Ford) are going to have to find a cheap way to make their trucks and SUVs more fuel efficient. They can't subsidize HSD on everything. Heck, it doesn't even work on anything that needs capability. GM could make BAS+ standard equipment on everything that uses a lot of gas. It doesn't interfere with towing or other capabilities. It allows for less displacement and meshes well with MDS. GM will be prepared. Ford will be begging for access like they did with the 6 speeds.

I like the idea of making it the XFE system. More power and MPG. Market it that way. As a separate option on everything. Then, lobby the feds for a tax credit to obviate the cost. Don't call it a hybrid, just sell it on $$$ vs MPG.

GM could launch a huge campaign. Make BAS+ standard on everything and state that its the VOLT for everyone else. Running engines at lights is simply inappropriate and we're putting a stop to it. Once this technology is validated over a few years...watch out.

[MechEng]

Originally Posted by stormwatcher

Toyota is the undisputed leader in hybrids. It is difficult to acknowledge, I know, but until that reality is acknowledged, progress by GM will very slow.

I will agree that Toyota is the current market leader in Hybrids no doubt about it (but my comment was about pay back periods and cost of ownership not who is the market leader). And I will also agree that to date GM has been very slow in rolling out its technology. But we are talking about the potential future. Not the past nor the present. And if GM does this right they could become the leader and I know for someone like you that could be difficult to acknowledge.

Originally Posted by stormwatcher

Part of the problem is GM is not marketing hybrids to consumers, but is instead obssessed with besting Toyota. Toyota has spents year slowly cultivating, wooing and building a hybrid car owner base. GM must patiently do the same.

I'm so sure Lutz and Henderson are awake at night from nightmares about Toyota's HSD system. Is GM aiming to beat Toyota? Damn right they are. Toyota set the benchmark. GM is looking to top that benchmark that's how the industry works. You are right that Toyota has spent years slowly cultivating, wooing and building a hybrid car owner base. GM is more focused on build a car people actually want so that customers don't need to be wooed or cultivated to buy the product.

[AMERICA 123]

Originally Posted by goblue

Stormwatcher - the game is different this time around.

Outstanding post but I just love this ^^^ line.

- and this one.

GM will be prepared.

This is part of the sheer genius of what Mr Wagoner and the brilliant people of GM have been putting together.

A PT program that brilliantly combines the tricky task of transition with not only outstanding product and systems but also with unparalleled flexibility.

Come what may, they will be ready.

Our little fifth column effort in this country has done their damnedest and achieved many bad things but, enough of really matters will get thru and then -

MB is the only one that appears within sniffing distance of all that in an overall sense and I would not discount the responses of many of the others specifically BMW and Honda but that said, GM's just has that something extra -

We have to make sure Opel ends up an acceptable outcome.

Btw goblue I messed up a number - should be 47,800

[goblue]

Originally Posted by AMERICA 123

Outstanding post but I just love this ^^^ line.

- and this one.



This is part of the sheer genius of what Mr Wagoner and the brilliant people of GM have been putting together.

A PT program that brilliantly combines the tricky task of transition with not only outstanding product and systems but also with unparalleled flexibility.

Come what may, they will be ready.

Our little fifth column effort in this country has done their damnedest and achieved many bad things but, enough of really matters will get thru and then -

MB is the only one that appears within sniffing distance of all that in an overall sense and I would not discount the responses of many of the others specifically BMW and Honda but that said, GM's just has that something extra -

We have to make sure Opel ends up an acceptable outcome.

Btw goblue I messed up a number - should be 47,800

Sheer genius is right. You know the ironic part, GM just offloaded the debt required to design and engineer 3 hybrid systems. Ford not only had to pay for their one limited system, they had to pay Toyota royalties! Wagoner might just be vindicated after all.

[AMERICA 123]

Originally Posted by goblue

Sheer genius is right. You know the ironic part, GM just offloaded the debt required to design and engineer 3 hybrid systems

Another great point.

******

I like this article from the 2008 Geneva autoshow when BAS + was introduced.

Sam Abuelsamid. .wrote the best article out there on this intro and made a great catch.


Here is the relevant excerpt.

- The new pack will be 24 percent smaller in volume than the current NiMH unit.

It will weigh forty percent less and have thirty-three percent more power.

The smaller more powerful battery will give GM better packaging flexibility helping to make the system more adaptable to other applications.

The control software for the current system is completely different from the two-mode system.

While developing the two-mode, GM engineers made the software architecture scalable and flexible so that it could be used with different hybrid applications. That includes the mild hybrid which will now use the same software base.

The low power capability of the current system means that it's not practical for use on bigger vehicles.

Also just to support a key point you made earlier -

The increased power output and energy storage of the new version makes it suitable for use with almost every mainstream application GM has.


During the presentation Poulos provided an application example that started with the 3.6L V-6 that GM uses in numerous applications including the Lambda platform crossovers.

That engine produces around 260hp depending on the application.


As an alternative, Poulos showed a turbocharged 2.4L four cylinder that matched the torque curve of the V-6 above 3,000rpm but was lacking at the lower regions where most drivers spend most of their time.

With the next-gen mild hybrid system providing a torque assist at lower engine speeds in combination with the turbo four, the overall curve matched or exceeded the larger engine.

While the current Two-Mode hybrid apparently doesn't fit in the Lambda engine compartment, this system definitely would.

While matching performance, the turbo hybrid combination is smaller, lighter and more efficient.

While GM was undeniably reticent about getting too specific more than two years ahead of the production launch, they expect the new system to deliver a 15-20 percent boost in fuel economy compared to a similarly powerful conventional system.

They also declined to say which vehicles would get the system, although the current vehicles are an obvious start.

However, the fact that they chose to announce the system in Geneva is a clear system that they intend to offer this system in every market they operate in.

The system will be compatible with both front and rear wheel drive systems, so it seems likely that we'll see the new hybrid on rear drive cars like the Pontiac G8 and Chevy Camaro.

While hybrids haven't been particularly < successful > in Europe to date, the coming of CO2 limits in Europe will require companies like GM to go beyond the diesels they currently offer.

GM also declined to say how the manufacturing cost compares between the current and next gen systems.

They did say that they expect the customer cost to be similar to the current system and it will be profitable quickly as volumes climb.

No one would say on the record how high they expect volumes to go, but all indications are that 100,000 per year is strictly a jumping off point.

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/03...-hybrid-syste/

That 2.4 for a 3.6 idea most likely has been improved still further and in either case has tremendous worth.

[stormwatcher]

Originally Posted by goblue

Game set match.

For who, Toyota?

Originally Posted by goblue

Stormwatcher - the game is different this time around.

I've heard that before. Wake me when this new reality actually arrives.

Originally Posted by goblue

. . . so all of the sudden the 2 hybrid systems you state are irrelevant are right in the forefront. BAS+ and the 2 mode.

Never said they are irrelevant. I said if you can't sell BAS to customers (which GM can't), there is no use building them. 2-Mode is great, but GM has lost interest in it. BAS+ may be viable, but if rejected by consumers, it doesn't matter.

Originally Posted by goblue

GM could make BAS+ standard equipment on everything that uses a lot of gas.

If GM wants to give BAS+ away for free, sure, otherwise, GM has to persuade customers to pay for BAS+, which as we have seen with BAS, is a tall order indeed.

Originally Posted by goblue

GM could launch a huge campaign. Make BAS+ standard on everything and state that its the VOLT for everyone else.

And customers who don't want BAS+ will buy competitors cars.

Originally Posted by MechEng

But we are talking about the potential future.

GM has been talking and talking and talking and talking and talking about the potential future of hybrids since 2001. And in that times has sold around 40,000 hybrids total including BAS. Toyota, who has done a lot less talking and a lot more engineering, has sold over 1,000,000 hybrids in the last decade.

Originally Posted by MechEng

You are right that Toyota has spent years slowly cultivating, wooing and building a hybrid car owner base. GM is more focused on build a car people actually want so that customers don't need to be wooed or cultivated to buy the product.

GM doesn't want to cultivate or woo customers? Then they should just get out of the car business completely. Seriously.

Originally Posted by goblue

Sheer genius is right. You know the ironic part, GM just offloaded the debt required to design and engineer 3 hybrid systems.

Great. GM offloaded the cost onto unwilling taxpayers. Most of us don't consider shirking one's debts to be "sheer genius".

Originally Posted by goblue

Ford not only had to pay for their one limited system, they had to pay Toyota royalties! Wagoner might just be vindicated after all.

Wagoner presided over the largest corporate bankruptcy and government handout of all time. That's vindication?

Sorry guys, but I don't see anything from the above comments that GM really, truly and seriously understands the hybrid market. You still talk like GM sets the pace for the auto market when that hasn't been true for years. If GM is serious about hybrids in the long run, it will be a tough, slow slog.

[plane]

Yeah, I'm convinced now.
The billions GM has spent on the Volt are meaningless.
It's just another PR exercise.

[Millefune]

I thought they were going to use an American based company? So we're still sending more and more money to Japan?

[CaptainDan]

Originally Posted by Butz

How are we supposed to earn independence if we are so dependent on foreign energy sources?

A battery is not an energy source. It just stores energy that you made from some other source.

But, yes, the US should consider battery technology and production to be a "national security issue". Not just from a military perspective, but an economic one too. Battery tech will become more and more important to the developed, energy dependant (produced locally or not) countries of the world.

[CaptainDan]

Originally Posted by Drive_Fast

lets face it hybrid technology is expensive. it is really simple way to reduce our usage of oil. switch to another fuel that is here now.... Air. We have plenty of air. Tata has a car that runs on air.... way cant we use air to power a car? because the oil companies dont want us to since air can be gotten from a tire pump... local business would hate it since they could not sell you air.....

Unless you're putting sails on your car, air is not a "fuel", it is not an energy source.

Tata and others are just using compressed air (which you have to use some energy source to compress) as a storage device. Essentially it is a "battery". And the resulting tank of compressed air won't get you very far either unless it is monstrously large, or extremely high pressure - making the cost of "re-fueling" quite high. Your tire pump won't get you down the road.

[jeep2c]

Originally Posted by stormwatcher

HSD sells, BAS doesn't. In the long term, there's no use developing and marketing a product if the public won't buy it. If GM is unable to cultivate a BAS+ customer base in far larger numbers then their current results, it's modularity won't matter.

That's what GM said about the EV1, and they were railed for it; infact I'm sure if I looked around I could find commentary from you demonizing them for it.

Now that GM is going the other route and continuing to commit to the technology they get equal beef from you?

That's pitiful.