GM orders 100,000 Hitachi Lithium-Ion Batteries BAS+ comming soon

[plane]

Originally Posted by stormwatcher

Over your former V6? I expect any 4 cylinder engine to provide better fuel economy then a V6. With the tax credit basically making BAS a free option, why do you think sales figures were so low?

With the BAS, I didn't give up any power.
No compromise, no extra cost, +7 mpg.

Now, if you are arguing that BAS was poorly marketed (desiger's desk to final product), good luck finding someone to disagree with you.

However, if you just brush aside BAS as "ineffective" you would be incorrect.
The BAS power transitions are among the smoothest of all hybrids.
BAS is as close to a bolt-on solution that can be applied to any vehicle as any hybrid system on the market.

We all know how complicated HSD is. We all know Honda's solution is buried in the flywheel. BAS essentially is a bigger alternator with a bigger battery, some control logic, and a slight bit of transmission integration so that you don't roll backwards on hills while the engine is off.

You can count out BAS+ at your own peril. In a Cruze-sized vehicle or smaller, with a direct injected 1.4l engine and six-speed transmission, 20% more efficient than BAS, it would not be surprising to see 45 mpg combined.

[Dr. Show-Me]

I find the extraordinary negativity toward GM on a GM fan website to be truly appalling.
GM went down because bad management decisions decades ago, and a financial crisis the affects the whole world. GM will survive and prosper in the long run.
BAS+ is a system that will advance fuel economy some ten to fifteen percent in the city, and when coupled with six speed transmissions, direct injection, and hcci, will see V8s getting 25-30 mpg overall, sixes getting 35 and 4s getting 45 mpg. Have faith in GM on this.

[CUtiger08]

Originally Posted by Dr. Show-Me

BAS+ is a system that will advance fuel economy some ten to fifteen percent in the city, and when coupled with six speed transmissions, direct injection, and hcci, will see V8s getting 25-30 mpg overall, sixes getting 35 and 4s getting 45 mpg. Have faith in GM on this.

I have faith in their engineering, and I agree that BAS+ has tons of potential... but I have no faith in GM's marketing.

Call the BAS+ a hybrid and it will do just like BAS did (not very well), since it won't match the Prius or Fusion hybrids in their overall EPA MPG ratings (even if it's just as good in the "real world") which is what most people look at, especially when a car first comes out.

Make it a non-hybrid badged option, using the XFE badge, or even better don't even talk about BAS+ at all and just make it (and the resulting EPA ratings) standard on certain models, starting with the Cruze, then the "Aveo" and Orlando, then Epsilon II Malibu, and so on... and it will do much better.

[sancapguy]

It looks like the GM BAS+ system is like the honda Insights except the electric motor is connected by a belt instead of on the flywheel. GM looks to be using the "bounce" method (like the insight) where the gas engine turns with all valves shut. (no fuel is put into the engine, and the vacuum&pressure from the shut valves (bounce) actually have very little parasitic loss). This means the engine may be off but is still turning.

For those of you who think this isn't a true Hybrid, Mercedes uses a similar system also.

With this new Energy Bill, Get ready for most cars to have some sort of engine shut of in the next few years.

[fp115]

Originally Posted by stormwatcher

HSD is alread used widely. *If* it's losing money (which I doubt), it seems odd Toyota wants to expand worldwide HSD production.

At this point, almost every hybrid on the market is losing money, even Toyota. There has not been a way to address the cost effectiveness of having two engines on board that both essentially do the same thing. Hybrids have never been a viable product, but seeing as they are popular, may as well jump the bandwagon and produce them while working on other technologies that actually do make sense.

Originally Posted by stormwatcher

GM said hydrogen was the future a few years back so I take the "VOLTEC is the future" claims with a big pinch of salt. It will be customers, and not GM's PR department who will decide the fate of VOLTEC.

Hydrogen is still the future, as long as the government is willing to invest into an infrastructure. There is no need to build an infrastructure for the Volt to work, every home already has power.

When a proper method to address hydrogen creation and an infrastructure to support it comes around, GM will have thousands of vehicles ready for production. Unlike any other automaker, GM is the only one to have a vehicle that is built up to production specification with the next generation hydrogen system to be smaller and much more efficient than the one launched last year.

[wescoent]

Originally Posted by fp115

At this point, almost every hybrid on the market is losing money, even Toyota. There has not been a way to address the cost effectiveness of having two engines on board that both essentially do the same thing. Hybrids have never been a viable product, but seeing as they are popular, may as well jump the bandwagon and produce them while working on other technologies that actually do make sense.
.

I think you'll find some financial managers at Ford, Toyota, and Nissan who disagree with you on that.

[fp115]

Originally Posted by wescoent

I think you'll find some financial managers at Ford, Toyota, and Nissan who disagree with you on that.

Ok go ahead and show me the numbers. I have seen much different over the past year. The only one with a chance to show some profit in the next few months is the Fusion. But at this point is still highly unprofitable.

[Butz]

Hitachi Ltd (6501.T), Japan's biggest industrial electronics group, plans to boost production capacity for lithium-ion batteries for hybrid cars at an estimated cost of 20-30 billion yen, targeting a 70-fold increase by 2015, the Nikkei business daily said.

How are we supposed to earn independence if we are so dependent on foreign energy sources?

[AMERICA 123]

Originally Posted by Dr. Show-Me

From what I've read, BAS+ or something very similar will be needed on almost all vehicles to meet CAFE standards. I read that in the future, the concept of an engine running at a stoplight will seem quaint, because all vehicles will be off at stoplights, thus saving fuel and reducing pollution. If you think in terms of 10-15% higher city fuel economy, the savings and reduced pollution will pay for itself. A car rated at 20 city/30 highway becomes 22 or 23 city/30 highway. Or if a 30 city, becomes 33 or 34 city. Expect to see this on almost all cars.

That is the right idea but your numbers are low.

Basically add the two together - then multiply, and then redistribute back.

Or, take the EPA provided combined mpg 55 / 45 composition / split and do the same.

Or make your own 50 /50 combined mileage number and same - same, ie multiply that - then redistribute back.

Its crude but effective and its also in line with the EPA induced preferred 'practice' as long as you use and assign the remainder fractions 'correctly'.


*****

As an example of where this BAS + is going, consider both types of current I4 4AT AURA /Malibus ie the current BAS and its most direct analog.



AURA / Malibu 2.4L 4AT... 26....................34 - current BAS

AURA / Malibu 2.4L 4AT... 22....................30 - current conventional

...........................+4....................+ 4 mpg

.........................+ 18.18 %........+ 13.34 %


'Average' gain ( 50 / 50 ) = 15.76 %

'Average gain ( 55 / 45 ) = 16.00 %

GM press release claims 10 -15 %

*****

So BAS + goes up from there ie from a conservatively rated 10 -15% gain BAS ' 1.0( b ) ' system to a 15 - 20% gain BAS + system.

But don't worry, there is going to even more about that 'gain' story - on at least a few if not most or all.

As goblue and others have pointed out, it can literally be applied to almost all if not in fact on everything and anything.

Originally Posted by johnstarnes

From what I am seeing here, BAS is a baby step from a normal ICE powertrain towards Voltec, right?

John, Its not just about product, powertrain, user factors and preferences - its also about price and the related price points.

BAS at this point, looks like the front runner for the first truly universal mass exploitation by a sensible battery hybrid system.

Among other things its basically 'fully' modular in nature and is relatively speaking, cheaper and simpler as others have said - which also means its in first position in terms of potentially being universally profitable.

Contrary to all the crap, HSD to date has been neither.

Toyota some years back talked about the possibility of a battery hybrid system becoming a universal 'option' not much different than what we have today.

BAS+ has the potential to do just that, HSD now looks very unlikely to ever accomplish that strictly on its own - maybe could with some sort of another 'helper' system like the 'lite' systems they have in Japan on two ? or three ? at this point..

Originally Posted by goblue

Of course it has nothing to do with VOLTEC. Toyota and Ford are taking a one plan strategy to fuel economy. Complicated parallel hybrids for everything.

GM is taking a multiprong strategy - and it should work as everything they are doing is best in class. All they need is a jolt in gas prices.

BAS+ is the cheapest, most effective system for the money. It could be rolled out on everything to meet an Obama requirement. That's why it is insurance. HSD is too expensive to use widely. Toyota can only subsidize so many hybrids.

VOLTEC is the future, but its too expensive right now for everything. Need cheaper batteries to give more range when taking into account 2x weight of an SUV.

2 Mode is optimized for trucks and SUVs - vehicles that need more than BAS+ can do, while also taking into account that VOLTEC not coming anytime soon. This is where parallel hybrids shine - in vehicles that use enough gas to actually justify the expense. GM's system can actually tow.

Something else, ever wonder why Toyota doesn't just make HSD an option on everything if its so good, why does Ford use it on two vehicles? It's not plug and play. 2 Mode and especially BAS+ are.

Yep.

Pretty much it.

There is even more good news about it in a detail sense and also from a manufacturing process point of view.

There will be a stretch where BAS +, its developments, and possibly ( slim ) some competitors 'like' it are likely to be the dominant architecture volumewise - then comes the E-flex / VOLTec stuff.

In a useful way, you can count the two lighter systems together ie (flywheel / motor / generator ) and BAS - and done that way its becomes that much more likely non full hybrids will dominate.

Throw in evolution - almost inevitable.

Two Modes pluses and minuses can be looked at from different angles and IMO at least a little more 'favorably' as well - but that is perhaps more of a subjective matter.

There will possibly come a day down the road a ways where a product or product line offers both.

Another great thing here is BAS + offers real and usable software integration advantages with Two Mode.

[stormwatcher]

Originally Posted by fp115

Hydrogen is still the future, as long as the government is willing to invest into an infrastructure.

Why the government? If there was a viable future for hydrogen, the free market would be all over it. The problem with hydrogen is, well, hydrogen. There are no economically viable methods of making it.

[stormwatcher]

Originally Posted by AMERICA 123

BAS at this point, looks like the front runner for the first truly universal mass exploitation by a sensible battery hybrid system.

Except that BAS has been a resounding commercial failure.

Originally Posted by AMERICA 123

Among other things its truly modular in nature and is relatively speaking cheaper and simpler as others have said - which also means its in first position in terms of potentionally being universally profitable.

Contrary to all the crap, HSD to date has been neither.

HSD sells, BAS doesn't. In the long term, there's no use developing and marketing a product if the public won't buy it. If GM is unable to cultivate a BAS+ customer base in far larger numbers then their current results, it's modularity won't matter.

[AMERICA 123]

Originally Posted by stormwatcher

Except that BAS has been a resounding commercial failure.

Other than the green halo effect, which btw Toyota spent enormous sums of money on, so has HSD.

HSD is not just about 24 months of Prius sales in the US and a few decent ones in Japan.

What is it at this point 70 -80% ??? of all Toyota hybrid sales have been the Prius (only) on a world wide basis with substantially more than half of either number here in the US only ?????

Besides about 2/3 s of that Prius story is not about the vehicle itself in a direct sense.

Its really more about buyers wanting to be different in a certain way and the power of the juggernaut that is Toyota Marketing.

As goblue points out this is BAS+ , and its effects are part of a integrated multi prong approach...... and when the VOLT and its companions come GM grabs that green halo - and more.

Pretty simple to understand just one of the synergistic effects that will be happening - its as old as the business itself.

They come in because of the VOLT, and go home with a BAS+ equipped Cruze or Malibu....

Toyota is going to be boxed in both from within and from without.

They blew it or if you prefer, it got away from them - because of much more than a fumble and an unexpectedly muddy field.

Wrong game plan.

- although some think they just need to change their cleats.

HSD sells, -

Sure, like a drunk can be considered sober when he doesn't have the bottle -

More charitably, the Prius can sell under subsidized x 3 conditions - and or high fuel prices but only in a few countries and only those without diesel competitors..

Other than that its a champion alright - seriously I do hope they continue to over pursue with it - it'll mess them up just that much faster. .

Btw, saying even that positive part is not the same as saying the same about HSD in general or about Toyota hybrids in general which ndo include those 'lit' systems we never hear about that are offered in Japan

[stormwatcher]

Originally Posted by AMERICA 123

HSD is not just about 24 months of Prius sales in the US and a few decent ones in Japan..

HSD has sold over 1,000,000 units worldwide. GM's hybrid efforts to date have sold what, 40,000 units?? Don't kid yourself who the leader is here.

Originally Posted by AMERICA 123

Besides, this is BAS+ ..

Call it SuperBAS, BAS Maximum, BAS Ultra, whatever. Will it sell? Does GM know how to sell it? Do consumers want it?

If you can't sell it, there's no reason to build it. And bigger 'Hybrid' decals won't help.

Originally Posted by AMERICA 123

....and then when the VOLT and its companions come GM grabs that green halo - and more.

LOL. I've been hearing that from GM since 2001. First GM was going to 'wow' the world with hydrogen powered vehicles available to the general public. Never happened. Then TwoMode was going to slay the evil HSD. Never happened. Then the "value" of BAS was going to happen. Except consumers rejected it.

With GM and hybrids, it's always somewhere off in the future where they win the hybrid crown.

GM already has an excellent hybrid system, the TwoMode, but they seem incapable of marketing it.

Since GM is losing money on the TwoMode, losing money on BAS, going to lose money on VOLTEC, you expect me to be excited that GM is going to lose more money on BAS+ too?

[packardlust]

Originally Posted by Jimgm

Can BAS+ be paired with the hybrid transmissions used in the full size trucks?

No, But the BAS+ uses the 6 speed automatic, which in my book is better than the 4 speed in the dual mode hybrid...

[A Bum In A Bus]

Originally Posted by Dr. Show-Me

I find the extraordinary negativity toward GM on a GM fan website to be truly appalling.
GM went down because bad management decisions decades ago, and a financial crisis the affects the whole world. GM will survive and prosper in the long run.
BAS+ is a system that will advance fuel economy some ten to fifteen percent in the city, and when coupled with six speed transmissions, direct injection, and hcci, will see V8s getting 25-30 mpg overall, sixes getting 35 and 4s getting 45 mpg. Have faith in GM on this.

I agree 100%.