GM orders 100,000 Hitachi Lithium-Ion Batteries BAS+ comming soon

[stormwatcher]

Originally Posted by adplusone

So after reading all this thread...this small block Chevy building old dude is still confused.

Welcome to the club.

Originally Posted by adplusone

How many vehicles does GM have to build to meet this committment of 100k batteries?

100,000

Originally Posted by adplusone

Does the BAS+ use more than one battery per vehicle?

No. Each battery is composed of numerous cells which comprises one complete battery unit and Hitachi is supplying 100,000 complete battery units.

Originally Posted by adplusone

Is this a new technology for GM?

Because of the lithium-ion batteries, this is a newer (and probably more expensive) version of BAS, though with other improvements built in. It still remains a very mild belt/alternator/start system that can only propel the vehicle under battery power for very short bursts.

Originally Posted by adplusone

What US vehicles might it have an application for?

Not sure. The Malibu for sure. Possibly the Equinox and others too.

[psece]

Originally Posted by stormwatcher

Does anyone own a BAS hybrid?

GM sold 134 Saturn Aura BAS hybrids this year. Hardly a rip-roaring success. The Malibu BAS hybrid sales came in at 2,142 to the end of May.



BAS+ nothing to do with VOLTEC. VOLTEC will have to prove itself all on its own. And in spite of GM pumping out constant VOLTEC hype, this will take years.



Why is it smart to produce BAS+? GM has a terrible track record on hybrids so far. Why will the more expensive while still promising modest mileage improvements BAS+ fare any better?



Which still leaves the question of why the public will want to buy BAS+.

I predict GM will be lucky, very lucky, to sell 20,000 BAS+ hyrbids in their first year.

GM would have been much more successful if they didn't put hybrid stickers all over the cars and market them as such. They also always made the hybrids more expensive by making them a content level instead of a option. Make sure that the BAS+ is offered as an option and keep the 6 speed tranny and it will take off.

[Dr. Show-Me]

Several European manufacturers and Mazda have already introduced BAS+ type systems. It would appear that GM will bring it out as an option, followed by universal application when CAFE bites harder.

[plane]

Originally Posted by stormwatcher

Does anyone own a BAS hybrid?

GM sold 134 Saturn Aura BAS hybrids this year. Hardly a rip-roaring success. The Malibu BAS hybrid sales came in at 2,142 to the end of May.

I guessed as much when you posted.
I own a BAS hybrid and it works great
+7 mpg over my former V6.
$0 added extra cost with the tax break.

This is the first generation technology.
With BAS+, 3 times as powerful and 20% more efficient in a Cruze, with a 6 speed transmission, would not be surprising to see 50 mpg.

And that's much less complexity and much smoother power transitions than any other hybrid.

[johnstarnes]

From what I am seeing here, BAS is a baby step from a normal ICE powertrain towards Voltec, right?

[AMERICA 123]

Originally Posted by stormwatcher

Of course.

Its says:

"Hitachi has already received orders for lithium-ion batteries for 100,000 hybrid autos that General Motors plans to sell from next year."

Still sounds overly ambitious to me.

Because its poorly written and creates a false impression - and you are 'reading' it a certain way although the poorly written part is the main issue..

There is both an older and newer GM press release that makes everything clear and makes total sense.

A correction would go something like this:

This -

"Hitachi has already received orders for lithium-ion batteries for 100,000 hybrid autos that General Motors plans to sell from next year."

- should read 'something' more like this -

"Hitachi has already received orders from GM for lithium-ion hybrid auto batteries. GM plans on producing and selling 100,000 BAS lithium-ion equipped vehicles annually with sales starting in 2010 ."

Originally Posted by Joe in T.O.

Why would they make the announcement to cancel the Hybrid Malibu then?

Hello JOE in T.O..

Once again the media did GM a disservice of sorts.

They did not 'cancel' the Malibu Hybrid.

They did and did not halt additional Malibu Hybrid production -

The media spun it - its just basically a temporary halt in retail or, retail and fleet production depending how things go.

. They will fill fleet orders - if requested.

Here, the key thing is there is now a gap in needed production of the current BAS product before the new BAS system comes on line.

Its about sales vs inventory etc etc.ie in order to 'balance' and not have old BAS inventory lying around when new BAS product becomes available.

Toyota as an example, has also done this kind of balancing as well with their hybrid production.

Originally Posted by adplusone

So after reading all this thread...this small block Chevy building old dude is still confused.

Yep.

On this -

Each hybrid vehicle is generally equipped with 30-50 lithium-ion batteries.

Should read something like -

" - Each hybrid vehicle will be equipped with lithium-ion battery composed of 30-50 individual cells.

There is more but that is a start - one choice out of many.

[goblue]

Originally Posted by stormwatcher

Does anyone own a BAS hybrid?

GM sold 134 Saturn Aura BAS hybrids this year. Hardly a rip-roaring success. The Malibu BAS hybrid sales came in at 2,142 to the end of May.



BAS+ nothing to do with VOLTEC. VOLTEC will have to prove itself all on its own. And in spite of GM pumping out constant VOLTEC hype, this will take years.



Why is it smart to produce BAS+? GM has a terrible track record on hybrids so far. Why will the more expensive while still promising modest mileage improvements BAS+ fare any better?



Which still leaves the question of why the public will want to buy BAS+.

I predict GM will be lucky, very lucky, to sell 20,000 BAS+ hyrbids in their first year.

Of course it has nothing to do with VOLTEC. Toyota and Ford are taking a one plan strategy to fuel economy. Complicated parallel hybrids for everything.

GM is taking a multiprong strategy - and it should work as everything they are doing is best in class. All they need is a jolt in gas prices.

BAS+ is the cheapest, most effective system for the money. It could be rolled out on everything to meet an Obama requirement. That's why it is insurance. HSD is too expensive to use widely. Toyota can only subsidize so many hybrids.

VOLTEC is the future, but its too expensive right now for everything. Need cheaper batteries to give more range when taking into account 2x weight of an SUV.

2 Mode is optimized for trucks and SUVs - vehicles that need more than BAS+ can do, while also taking into account that VOLTEC not coming anytime soon. This is where parallel hybrids shine - in vehicles that use enough gas to actually justify the expense. GM's system can actually tow.

Something else, ever wonder why Toyota doesn't just make HSD an option on everything if its so good, why does Ford use it on two vehicles? It's not plug and play. 2 Mode and especially BAS+ are.

[stormwatcher]

Originally Posted by plane

I guessed as much when you posted.
I own a BAS hybrid and it works great
+7 mpg over my former V6.
$0 added extra cost with the tax break.

Over your former V6? I expect any 4 cylinder engine to provide better fuel economy then a V6. With the tax credit basically making BAS a free option, why do you think sales figures were so low?

[stormwatcher]

Originally Posted by goblue

GM is taking a multiprong strategy - and it should work as everything they are doing is best in class. All they need is a jolt in gas prices.

GM is taking the ADD (attention deficit disorder) approach. Spend a little while on each hybrid system then abandon it shortly after. As for GM's hybrid products being "best in class", surely you are jesting.

Originally Posted by goblue

BAS+ is the cheapest, most effective system for the money.

BAS+ is vapor product. Nobody can buy it. BAS was rejected wholeheartedly by the marketplace, BAS+ may well be too.

Originally Posted by goblue

It could be rolled out on everything to meet an Obama requirement.

So is BAS+ being developed to satisfy government bureaucrats or American drivers?

Originally Posted by goblue

HSD is too expensive to use widely. Toyota can only subsidize so many hybrids.

HSD is alread used widely. *If* it's losing money (which I doubt), it seems odd Toyota wants to expand worldwide HSD production.

Originally Posted by goblue

VOLTEC is the future, but its too expensive right now for everything. Need cheaper batteries to give more range when taking into account 2x weight of an SUV.

GM said hydrogen was the future a few years back so I take the "VOLTEC is the future" claims with a big pinch of salt. It will be customers, and not GM's PR department who will decide the fate of VOLTEC.

[A Bum In A Bus]

These will be used starting next year, so GM has plans for plug-in next year. This is July, next year is just around the corner. Hopefully these cars won't be so pricey they won't sell.

[goblue]

Originally Posted by stormwatcher

GM is taking the ADD (attention deficit disorder) approach. Spend a little while on each hybrid system then abandon it shortly after. As for GM's hybrid products being "best in class", surely you are jesting.



BAS+ is vapor product. Nobody can buy it. BAS was rejected wholeheartedly by the marketplace, BAS+ may well be too.



So is BAS+ being developed to satisfy government bureaucrats or American drivers?



HSD is alread used widely. *If* it's losing money (which I doubt), it seems odd Toyota wants to expand worldwide HSD production.



GM said hydrogen was the future a few years back so I take the "VOLTEC is the future" claims with a big pinch of salt. It will be customers, and not GM's PR department who will decide the fate of VOLTEC.

I seriously can't stand the pessimism. People criticize GM when they abandon a car line, or a technology - but when they try and implement kaizen (CQI) then they also get criticized.

Here's a simple way to tell if a company is subsidizing its hybrids. Figure out what the difference in MSRP is. If a parallel hybrid is any less than 3-5 K, its subsidized. BAS didn't make a big enough difference in EPA, but it was also hooked to 4 speeds and Gen I Ecotec technology. It also costs about 1K.

Plane drives one of these vehicles. Something tells me if it sucked, we'd hear about it. Also, vaporware is not something that's in final validation. BAS+ is circling the track at Milford with the VOLT. How do I know this? I know people who are also at Milford, who run a battery of test equipment. What am I hearing? BAS+ is very effective when plugged into a standard car.

Some of us want to drive a hybrid without wearing a freak sign on the grille. Learn to like BAS - its the type of system that will keep a Camaro on the road against what's coming.

Yes, its a hedge against the Feds. GM needs a cheap way to dramatically raise FE if necessary across the board. Where's Ford's hedge? BAS doesn't even interfere with towing. HSD certainly does. GM now has 2 hybrid systems for trucks. Ford and Toyota have none.

VOLTEC is the future because anyone who truly understands H2 realizes its a pipe dream. We distribute power in this country in 3 ways. One of them is compatible with alternative fuels. I'd bank on that one. Run the numbers on H2, account for production, compression and transportation costs. Then look at that giant red tank on the shuttle and realize why H2 is perfect for space travel and terrible for ground transportation.

GM now has 3 hybrid systems in final validation or on the road - and every one of them is the most advanced in its class. If that's ADD - then I'm throwing away my Ritalin.

[jaywestfall]

Why aren't these being bought and supplied by an American company?

[eaton53]

IMO, they should proliferate BAS+ and stop calling it a hybrid. Call it something else.
A low cost 15% jump in fuel econ across the line would no doubt be widely accepted.

[stormwatcher]

Originally Posted by jaywestfall

Why aren't these being bought and supplied by an American company?

No American company is capable of filling the order to the specifications GM wants. A123 might be able to in the future, but not at present.

[rbarrios]

Originally Posted by johnstarnes

Thanks. Maybe you can explain something I've yet to get my mind around...how does regenerative braking work? I just don't see how mechanical/heat energy from brakes can be converted to electricity.

Like he said- the electric motor becomes an alternator.... turning the motor slows down the car enough...
But you can think of it this way too...
even the alternator in your car is a load on the engine.
If im not mistaken- GM cars computers can control the alternators output... by controlling the output- it can lessen the load (the amount of energy needed by the engine to turn the alternator and make electricity)...
So if your car doesnt need alot of electricity- the computer lessens alternator output and thus the engine saves gas by not having to turn the load the alternator creates.. which is almost like a little brake---...
Anyone correct me if im wrong on GM cars doing this...