GM Inside News Forum banner

GM Loses China Car Crown, But That's Not The Big Story

16K views 37 replies 19 participants last post by  spd98 
#1 ·
GM Loses China Car Crown, But That's Not The Big Story
Gordon G. Chang, Contributor
Forbes.com
12/29/2013 @ 3:22PM

In two days, Volkswagen will regain its title as the biggest foreign carmaker in China, the world’s largest automobile market.

At the end of November, the German company was 70,000 units ahead of General Motors GM -1.4%. VW crossed the 3 million mark on December 5. Its American rival needed an additional week to reach the same threshold. From all indications, the two companies will finish the year in the same order.

Volkswagen was last No. 1 in 2004. GM took the top spot with 35.2% sales growth in 2005 while VW sales fell that year.

The big story is not which foreign company holds bragging rights in China. After all, this is probably not the last time GM and VW will exchange the lead. The big story is that, after all these years of technology transfer, foreign companies dominate the Chinese market and domestic competitors continue to lose market share.

In November, domestic brands, according to the China Association of Automobile Manufacturers (CAAM), sold 686,400 units. That was up 5.5% over this October and 7.5% over November 2012. The comparable figures for all cars, domestic and foreign, were better: a 5.8% increase month-on-month and a 14.1% jump year-on-year.

More at link: http://www.forbes.com/sites/gordonc...but-thats-not-the-big-story/?partner=yahootix
 
See less See more
#2 ·
And the prospects for foreign carmakers are particularly bright. As the New York Times reported in October, Beijing has been hinting it will reduce now-crippling tariffs on foreign cars and drop the requirement that foreigners sign up local joint venture partners in order to manufacture in China. Both changes will certainly increase the foreign share of the Chinese market.
Pretty amazing if China drops those ridiculous requirements, though long term that may pose issues with other economies being flooded with cheap, government subsidized Chinese vehicles once the Chinese manufacturers figure out how to build competitive cars and trucks.
 
#21 · (Edited)
POPULATION DENSITY per SQ. MI./ NATION/ TOTAL POP

1261 /South Korea/ 48.5 mil.
1054/ Netherlands/ 16.7 "
961/ Israel/ 7.7 "
953/ India/ 1.2 billion
873/ Japan/ 128 mil.
365/ China/ 1.4 billion
264/ Cuba/ 11.2 mil.
83/ USA/ 317 "
60/ Brazil/ 200 "

http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_population_density



Some never figure it out. The Chinese historically are a very clever and inventive people. Whether that gift got burned out during the WWII slaughters or courtesy of the Great Cleansings, waits to be seen.

They finally floated an aircraft carrier. It was a rebuild of a Russian hull, cargo I think. This is CY 2013.
We fought and won the Pacific War (1941-1945) largely with aircraft carriers. A hundred or more of them.
The third dimension, as Roosevelt called it. Airplanes, that is.
(And submarines, of course, which decimated the Japanese merchant fleet.)

They are building their III Gen. missile subs now. The first one was recently released for a cruise.
How do you spell w-h-o-l-e s-h-i-p d-e-f-e-c-t-i-o-n?

Their "rescue" ice breaker got stuck in ice when they tried to make it to the marooned Rooskie globaloney warming tour ship.:fall: LOL don't get me started on the irony.

A French ice breaker turned back.

Now it's up to our friends from Oz--who apparently with 20-odd million folks still build a better ice breaker than a nation with 70 times the population and uncountable cash reserves, as well as the finest stolen technology, up the wazoo--to make it through to rescue Ivan and the Envirowakkoz. Or the Reds and Greens you might say.

So, some folks never do master modern technology as well as one would expect. Aeroflot flight, anyone?

Perhaps one day China will flood the world with excellent cheap tin imitations of the quality cars produced by US-America, the Euros, and fellow Asians.

Have something to do with freedom? Nah, that's silly.

I think the lesson n China us people want cars AND air to breathe. Sounds like the real race is for zero emissions and electrification. Or course that's a bit ironic considering their commitment to dirty coal power plants...
I read long ago that some of the cleanest US cars actually emitted cleaner air than they inhaled, in the dirtiest places. Perhaps the solution to China's pollution is to produce US-grade non-polluters and then drive them around in their cities until the air cleans up. :cool:

China is racing for power and wealth. Given their pollution, that makes the old Soviet Union's gajillions of gallons of toxic waste look like central Park in comparison, and the black skies in every major city that's not a tourist trap for gullible enlightened Westerners, the whole eastern half of the country will probably disappear under a dark cloud.

Unfortunately we are downwind.

VW is sucking all the earths natural resources out of the ground for the now, for a quick euro in the back pocket now. China is producing 20 million cars mainly Ching-Chong VW's from just 22,000 cars a year in the 1970's China's golden "green" age when billions of Chinese used to be happy & contented to zero emission cycle to the paddy fields for a fair days pay, a bowl of rice breathing clean fresh air.

Choking to death on black coal powered smog today is progress? Still at least the health & safety is getting better these days, at least they fit suicide nets at the factory's the Chinese have never had it so good?

Won't be to long before the oil that feeds and the lubes the worlds auto industry runs dry a lot quicker. Shame on you VW you would sell your own Mother to a stranger for a quick few Euros profit in China..
Millions of happy Chinese peasants during their "green era"? LOL, what history book did you grab hold of? "Chairman Mao's History of the Happy Starving Slaughtered Chinese Peasantry"?:eek:

A fair days pay? Maybe that used to fly pre-internet when the government could shut them out of what the rest of the world was like, but now China has a goal of being NUMERO UNO in terms of richest country on the planet. They are having their industrial revolution, and part of that is the people gaining the ability for freely moving about the country, as well as an increase in salary to pay for their new 1st world lifestyle.

Also, the rest of your comment makes no sense. Shame on you VW? Because they sold more cars than GM in China? Would you say "Shame on GM for sucking the earth dry of oil" if GM was the Chinese sales king?
Yes, shame shame shame.

China is building a lot of plants without controls at all. That's the biggest issue. The second is that they do not have standard regulations like the US, they are just worried about getting the capacity up and running.
And they're getting them up and running. In fact, to keep some of the happy well-paid unionized 40-hour/wk labor force busy they've built dozens of ghost cities. Good place for the UN building, but that's another discussion.

That's not necessarily true either. It really depends on the definition of pollution your using. I work in power generation and do a lot with pollution and controls. I'm fortunate to work with a guy who is known world wide for his research in this area (I generally work on the mechanics of actually making controls work, I get bored working in only theories!). And there is some very interesting research going on about PM at the moment. From a harm standpoint some "pollution" is regulated by particle size. EPA ignores what the particles are, they just care about the size (do some PM 2.5 googling). But research is showing that it depends a lot on what the particles are. Power plants tend to emit more organics than cars and as such are theoretically less dangerous. With others EPA only looks at emissions on a "per unit" basis and even then power plants are generally lower than cars.

the argument is really more of a political one than a scientific one. The government is driven by environmentalists for reduction results,but the truth is we still don't know what type of particle is the most dangerous.

Cars in the US emit more of many types "pollution" than power plants. The issue is that there is something like 255 million vehicles in the US. It's a lot harder to manage 255 million individual sources than it is a few thousand. It's also easier to go after industry retroactively than individuals who own cars. Could you imagine doing maintenance on you car then having to "upgrade" the pollution controls because of it? That might actually lead to rebellion in the US lol!
Well-said.
 
#3 ·
I think the lesson n China us people want cars AND air to breathe. Sounds like the real race is for zero emissions and electrification. Or course that's a bit ironic considering their commitment to dirty coal power plants...
 
#5 · (Edited)
VW is sucking all the earths natural resources out of the ground for the now, for a quick euro in the back pocket now. China is producing 20 million cars mainly Ching-Chong VW's from just 22,000 cars a year in the 1970's China's golden "green" age when billions of Chinese used to be happy & contented to zero emission cycle to the paddy fields for a fair days pay, a bowl of rice breathing clean fresh air.

Choking to death on black coal powered smog today is progress? Still at least the health & safety is getting better these days, at least they fit suicide nets at the factory's the Chinese have never had it so good?

Won't be to long before the oil that feeds and the lubes the worlds auto industry runs dry a lot quicker. Shame on you VW you would sell your own Mother to a stranger for a quick few Euros profit in China..
 
#6 ·
VW is sucking all the earths natural resources out of the ground for the now, China is producing 20 million cars mainly Ching-Chong VW's from just 22,000 cars a year in the 1970's China's golden "green" age when billions of Chinese used to be happy & contented to cycle to the paddy fields for a fair days pay, a bowl of rice breathing clean fresh air. Choking to death on black coal powered smog today is progress?

Won't be to long before the oil that feeds and the lubes the worlds auto industry run dry a lot quicker. Shame on you VW.
A fair days pay? Maybe that used to fly pre-internet when the government could shut them out of what the rest of the world was like, but now China has a goal of being NUMERO UNO in terms of richest country on the planet. They are having their industrial revolution, and part of that is the people gaining the ability for freely moving about the country, as well as an increase in salary to pay for their new 1st world lifestyle.

Also, the rest of your comment makes no sense. Shame on you VW? Because they sold more cars than GM in China? Would you say "Shame on GM for sucking the earth dry of oil" if GM was the Chinese sales king?
 
#7 · (Edited)
Sound like "Utopia" to me Vette Dude

Don't come running to me when your Corvettes running on empty or the gas price has just hiked because the Chinese want the oil to fill-up their *********** VW's, or all the car industry manufacturing base follows everything else gets moved into China.

China has been opening 2 new coal power stations a week, it was much cleaner back in GM's day when the good old small boxy micro people carrier RWD all American dream Wuling Sunshine & GM were number 1 best sellers a year ago, they have built another 100 new coal power stations since then. Me l am not a VW Fanboy like you, stick up for VW.



Toxic smog, wish l could have breath such good quality air, l am green with envy.

.

Health & Safety is top class these days is outstanding, pay $200 bucks a month 18 hours a day the Chinese have never had it so good, they even fit suicide nets for if you are having a off day and accidentally fall out the window - yes you are right what a No1 lifestyle.



Accommodation in China makes downtown Detroit West Chicago area look a luxury upmarket area. VW Chinese dormitories 100 sweaty co-workers to a room you can't beat it, No1 lifestyle can't be beaten.

Chinese labour practices.
Surrounded by a perimeter wall that runs for a kilometre through what was once farmland, the shadowy military academy is being built by a Chinese contractor whose managers are accused of meting out physical punishments, miserable conditions and meagre pay.

"The beatings happen very often," said a 28-year-old carpenter, wearing blue overalls as he made the long walk home after a 14-hour shift. "They ill-treat you and, if you make a mistake, they beat you up.

"I saw some men beaten up yesterday. A guy complained: 'You're not treating us like human beings,' and the Chinese replied: 'You should appreciate we've come to assist you.' They beat him up and he was fired."

The carpenter said he gets up at 4am and works from 7am to 9pm every day. For this he is paid $4 a day, but at least it is work so he can feed his wife and three children. What a fantastic Chinese company to work for, wonder if he drives a Corvette to work like you Vette Dude?
 
#9 · (Edited)
Accommodation in China makes downtown Detroit West Chicago area look a luxury upmarket area. VW Chinese dormitories 100 sweaty co-workers to a room you can't beat it, No1 lifestyle can't be beaten.
Um I've worked in Plymouth (Detroit), Michigan and I have been to several cities in China. While the living conditions of the average Chinese person is not great I would still take that over living in many area's of Detroit.

I wasn't blaming the automobile for China's air quality issues. But goverments like to crack down on cars more then anything else. Industry is certainly the bigger problem (along with power generation which I mentioned). Industry is a benefit to the country. Someone tooling around the goverments care less about.
China's biggest issue is mostly uncontrolled rapid growth in a country with very high population density. If the US had the population density of China the pollution in the US would likely be worse than China's as the pollution per capita in the US is still many times higher than China's. China has cities around size of San Francisco that have populations close to those of the whole state of California.

It's not that China loves coal. China is building everything right now. Coal, Natural Gas, Hydro electric, Nuclear, Wind and Solar included. The problem is that the economy has grown so fast they have expanded energy resources in all areas including coal.
 
#11 ·
Never discount the importance of pure snobbery in the auto game. Just as we poo poo our own domestics in the US, it appears the small percentage of Chinese who can afford cars go with the established luxury marques.

This might be a case of the 50/50 ownership deal with foreign nameplates producing the famous 'unintended consequences.' The 50/50 thing helped to line the pockets of select Chinese owners, but did it come at the expense of China developing its own 'authentic' home-grown Chinese marques?
 
#24 ·
Their "rescue" ice breaker got stuck in ice when they tried to make it to the marooned Rooskie globaloney warming tour ship. LOL don't get me started on the irony.

I won't but it didn't get stuck. They just decided the ice was too think to proceed - the Captain knows the limitations of his vessel and as there were better equipped vessels coming why should he risk his. The Australian ice breaker likewise stopped because the wind and visibility got bad.
 
#28 ·
So who's the idiot who ordered an icebreaker without a 5" gun? Even a well-equipped arms room with some grenade launchers and a few hundred hand grenades would be helpful.
Or send a couple of F-18s over to drop some icebreaking ordnance.

Come on, boys, what are you waiting for? HUSTLE!

in reference to California...it's called LOCATION, LOCATION, LOCATION.

#1 LOCATION...west facing an ocean.
#2 LOCATION...east backed against mountains.
#3 LOCATION...in a 'basin' between #2 & #3.
Indeed. For the slow readers, that means that when you stack 18+ million not including a couple million undocumenteds, with some naturally-occurring dust and crud as well as fuel-burning support systems, in a basin surrounded by mountains, the air quality problems are not all solved as simply as if one happened to be a Futurist.
 
#25 ·
Neanderthal said:
;I read long ago that some of the cleanest US cars actually emitted cleaner air than they inhaled, in the dirtiest places. Perhaps the solution to China's pollution is to produce US-grade non-polluters and then drive them around in their cities until the air cleans up.
I am not sure which "US cars" you are referring to, but perhaps they should be used in LA and the rest of California....

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/04/25/us-usa-losangeles-life-idUSBRE93O00S20130425

(Admittedly I was a bit surprised to find that America (after decades and decades) is still struggling with 3rd world problems such as smog).
 
#26 ·
in reference to California...it's called LOCATION, LOCATION, LOCATION.

#1 LOCATION...west facing an ocean.
#2 LOCATION...east backed against mountains.
#3 LOCATION...in a 'basin' between #2 & #3.
 
#31 ·
China has the rights to a lot of the oil off the African coast -they have bought it from governments of various nations there.
Gee has that photo surfaced again. I saw that before i went to China in 2004 so it must be from 2003 or earlier. In Shenzhen the hospital has a cubicle that unwanted children can be placed in anonymously. The one child policy is being dismantled at the moment.
 
#33 · (Edited)
Yep dumped the gutter, can't find the one with truck & cyclists that were just running them over as if they were roadkill a dead rabbit in the road.



Lob them out the car window as you cross the bridge would be considered murder in any other civilised country, life is cheap in one-child rule China.

Not to worried about South Africa, it will be the bloodbath over resources with Japan & Philippines that huge oil/gas reserves. Chinese could seize all the VW Ching-Chong factory foreign assists they use to make the lions share of the Chinese made 20,000,000 cars a year with if things got nasty in the Japanese/Philippine island disputes, but at least the US has trillions of US debt the Chinese have loaned them trump card.

Arctic could become nasty as well as those nasty commie Russian backed eskimo & polar bear terrorists and everybody else seems to think is their very own last great untapped supply of oil that they can have to sip on when the oil runs thin on the ground. Russian are already started drilling for future supply for their oil sipping cars, in an area thats supposed to be left untouched. It is key to maintaining their current output of about 10 million barrels of oil a day. Without Arctic drilling, Russia’s oil production is projected to decline by about 1 million barrels a day by 2020. So there could be a few feathers flying around in the arctic soon as well as peak oil starts to kick in.
 
#32 ·
Being number one in sales is often over rated.

Number two in volume is good if you can work on improving profit per vehicle.

It's the long term balance of the two that gm continues to evolve.

Thanks for the heads up on the Chinese sales race.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top