GM Looking for Volt Tax Breaks to bring Cost below $40k

[Geotpf]

Originally Posted by zete

And that wording ensures it only applies to electric vehicles, as opposed to various hybrids that aren't really electric vehicles.

Let's hope it works out for GM.

But the Volt is a hybrid, due to the gas engine. You would have to word it really peculiarily to include the Volt but not a plug-in Prius.

[Geotpf]

Originally Posted by E. Haskell

I think with markup the Volt will be selling for over $40k....

Nobody will pay 40k for a Volt if a plug in Prius costs 20k, which it will. Even if the electric-only range of the next-gen Prius is much less than the Volt, nobody will pay double for the Volt, especially since the Prius is much more practical (four door midsized for the Prius as opposed toa two door compact for the Volt).

The total, out the door, price of the Volt has to be equal to or less than the Prius to get significant sales (greater than a thousand units a month). Toyota has a head start in this area; they are the gold standard. If you want to beat them at their own game, you have to actually beat them.

[PhishPhood]

Originally Posted by Geotpf

Nobody will pay 40k for a Volt if a plug in Prius costs 20k, which it will. Even if the electric-only range of the next-gen Prius is much less than the Volt, nobody will pay double for the Volt, especially since the Prius is much more practical (four door midsized for the Prius as opposed toa two door compact for the Volt).

The total, out the door, price of the Volt has to be equal to or less than the Prius to get significant sales (greater than a thousand units a month). Toyota has a head start in this area; they are the gold standard. If you want to beat them at their own game, you have to actually beat them.

I love SOTP prognostications because they can be made with no repercussions to anyone or any group. So here goes....

The automakers get Congress to approve a $5000 tax credit for EREVs and PHEVs for an indefinite period. All PHEVs and EREVs are included.
The Volt as a 'blank sheet vehicle' getting 40 mi gas-free does go on sale for about $40000 but less the $5000 credit is targetted to a small well-to-do segment of commuters @ $35000 net.
The Prius PHEV 'option' is a super trim level using new Li-Ion technology but as an 'upscale option' to the NiMH technology which is remains the primary technology for 90% of the Prius models. NiMH technology is fully costed and beginning to decline in price. $20000 to $30000 for the Gen3 seems right. The Prius Li-Ion option with 20 gas-free miles goes on sale for $35000 and like the Volt is also targetted to a small well-to-do segment of commuters. If it qualifies for a $5000 credit then that's gravy for the buyers.
Honda refuses to compete.
Ford debuts it's own stand-alone PHEV using only Li-Ion technology.

Remember a key issue on this tax credit. Those that can afford a $35000 commuter are likely to be in an upper tax bracket and subject to AMT. If so then they might lose the rights to any tax credit, ergo back to a $40000 vehicle price.

[bigtime]

GM, sell the car for 40k. Then as your able to spread the technology into other cars the cost will come down. Then you get to keep the price at 40k because how could the next one cost considerable less? Thus you have your fat profits that you enjoy so much. Eventually charging a volt price for a cobalts worth of material. Its brilliant!

This tax credit crap is marketing 101 and you guys are falling for it. I love how everything green has to end up costing us more when in reality its saving companies millions in the long run. They found a way to charge you more for less all in the name of saving the planet.

[E. Haskell]

Originally Posted by Geotpf

Nobody will pay 40k for a Volt if a plug in Prius costs 20k, which it will. Even if the electric-only range of the next-gen Prius is much less than the Volt, nobody will pay double for the Volt, especially since the Prius is much more practical (four door midsized for the Prius as opposed toa two door compact for the Volt).

The total, out the door, price of the Volt has to be equal to or less than the Prius to get significant sales (greater than a thousand units a month). Toyota has a head start in this area; they are the gold standard. If you want to beat them at their own game, you have to actually beat them.

1. The Prius doesn't cost $20k. The Prius Touring which is what most people buy (the previous base model) is around $25k. With a few options the current Prius can easily reach $27-$30k. Are you telling me Toyota is going to price the next gen Prius for $20k...even with better technology, the weak dollar and the Japanese complaining about the cost of materials? I'm guessing we'll see a plug in Prius cost MORE than the current Prius.

2. I've heard the plug in Prius is supposed to go about 6-10 miles on battery power alone. The Volt is supposed to go 40 miles. That makes the Prius a turd in comparison....old technology that will NOT allow you to break free from the pump. The Volt would be a game-changer and the Prius would be nothing more than a 2nd rate band-aid.

3. I said markup will drive the price to $40k. I didn't say GM will have sustained long term sales at a $40k price point. There are always people that want to be the first to adopt new technology and if GM trickles the Volts out slowly, I can almost guarantee we'll see big markups on the Volt. Anyone remember $5k+ markups on the '04 Prius? Who's buying those $10k Prius battery kits?

Lets see...gas prices at record levels (maybe $5+ by then), the hottest technology on the market, the ability to stop buying gas cold turkey...yeah, I see some markup in the Volt's future.

[PhishPhood]

Originally Posted by E. Haskell

1. The Prius doesn't cost $20k. The Prius Touring which is what most people buy (the previous base model) is around $25k. With a few options the current Prius can easily reach $27-$30k. Are you telling me Toyota is going to price the next gen Prius for $20k...even with better technology, the weak dollar and the Japanese complaining about the cost of materials? I'm guessing we'll see a plug in Prius cost MORE than the current Prius.

2. I've heard the plug in Prius is supposed to go about 6-10 miles on battery power alone. The Volt is supposed to go 40 miles. That makes the Prius a turd in comparison....old technology that will NOT allow you to break free from the pump. The Volt would be a game-changer and the Prius would be nothing more than a 2nd rate band-aid.

3. I said markup will drive the price to $40k. I didn't say GM will have sustained long term sales at a $40k price point. There are always people that want to be the first to adopt new technology and if GM trickles the Volts out slowly, I can almost guarantee we'll see big markups on the Volt. Anyone remember $5k+ markups on the '04 Prius? Who's buying those $10k Prius battery kits?

Lets see...gas prices at record levels (maybe $5+ by then), the hottest technology on the market, the ability to stop buying gas cold turkey...yeah, I see some markup in the Volt's future.

I think in two years we all will be paying $5 a gallon but $33 -$35K is an awful lot for a commuter vehicle.

The two technologies are different enough that tons of discussion will be generated but reality will surface in the form of real world market decisions. GM will have the Volt targetted to a small slice of the commuting market with very good new engineering and presumably a 40 mi gas-free range ( say 20K to 30K units ). Toyota will have two Prius', a less expensive NiMH model for the bulk of the market ( 200K to 300K units annually ) and a more expensive Li-Ion model using existing technology for a small slice of the commuting market ( 20K to 30K units?) .

Initially neither company is going to be able to get beyond the fact that the new technology is going to be very very expensive thus the vast majority of the buying public is excluded from participating. A Cobalt, an Elantra, Aveo, Yaris or Fit is a much much better decision for these buyers. Both the Volt and the Prius PHEV are no-go's for these buyers.

Lets see...gas prices at record levels (maybe $5+ by then), the hottest technology on the market, the ability to stop buying gas cold turkey...yeah, I see some markup in the Volt's future

There is another little sticky detail concerning these new EREVs and PHEVs. You can't really go cold turkey on fuel. You many not need much but you will have to replace the fuel in the tank of the ICE generator regularly or it will go stale. That means that if you happen to have a perfect 40 mi daily RT where you usually use zero gas then at some point within a week or two you will have to drive over that 40 mile limit in order to begin using the fuel in the tank just so that you can replace it with fresh fuel. Maybe it's once a month but that fuel can't just sit there forever.

[JBsZ06]

Because this is ground breaking technology that will truly better the environment, and the economy I believe a tax break is warrantied.

[Ming]

Originally Posted by tgagneguam

I don't mind smart government spending: defending the borders;

Message to the government: stay out of my bedroom, stay off my property, and keep your hands out of my wallet. The world always is a better place when you do that.

While I agree with your basic premise, there is no major party supporting this now.

We have a hugely expensive war in Iraq that, debatably, has nothing to do with defending our borders. If only a tiny fraction of that money spent to secure the Middle East was spent on biofuel subsides, for instance, we wouldn't have to worry so much about control of resources overseas.

When we get out of the Midde East and stop playing World Police to the tune of HUNDREDS of BILLIONS of dollars, then I think we can drop all of the subsidies and elect a Libertarian.

The way I see it, if even 30% of the reason we're in Iraq is to make sure oil keeps flowing (if not from Iraq, then from its neighbors) then that's 30% of 400 Billion that could be spent making our country independent of the resources of of other countries.

I would never use your argument, in other words, while the Elephant in the Room is chowing down. Once can't simply explain it away as "National Security". If even a measure of National Security is tied to access to resources like oil, then right there is an excuse to make us less dependent --- and if that means a $4,000 tax credit for a Volt? So be it.

Remember a TAX CREDIT means the government doesn't get what's in your wallet in the first place. Someone for smaller government should support giving government less. The government doesn't "Pay" us anything (nor does it "cost" them) just because they say we owe them 30% of our income. If you've overpaid and get a return from them after buying your Volt, they simply got the benefit of using your cash when it could have been gathering interest in your bank. That's how I see it.

I really dislike the concept that I've heard repeated in the media, which is "The lastest tax cut will cost the government 9 billion". It's as if the Government was producing money off of some magical tree and was forced to "pay" us.

And the argument that one is robbing Peter to "pay" Paul is invalid as well since the highest income individuals in the U.S. have long made extensive use of tax loopholes, hybrids or no.

Once we can get back inside our borders, come up with a flat tax plan, and elect Libertarians to office in positions of power in Washington, I'm with you. But I won't pick and choose when I stand for those principles and ignore the reality of things like the uber-expensive war in Iraq, and pooh-pooh a tiny (by comparison) subsidy for cars or biofuels that might help eliminate our need to worry about who runs the oil spigots in the Middle East in the first place.

[E. Haskell]

Originally Posted by PhishPhood

There is another little sticky detail concerning these new EREVs and PHEVs. You can't really go cold turkey on fuel. You many not need much but you will have to replace the fuel in the tank of the ICE generator regularly or it will go stale. That means that if you happen to have a perfect 40 mi daily RT where you usually use zero gas then at some point within a week or two you will have to drive over that 40 mile limit in order to begin using the fuel in the tank just so that you can replace it with fresh fuel. Maybe it's once a month but that fuel can't just sit there forever.

I know people that store their vehicle for many months. They use a fuel stabilizer.

From the Sta-bil website:

STA-BIL Fuel Stabilizer should be used in any vehicle or power equipment that is used infrequently or stored for more than 60 days. Also, treat fuel in gas cans or storage tanks as soon as purchased so fuel will stay fresh. STA-BIL Fuel Stabilizer ensures quick, easy starts in all 2 & 4 cycle engines. It is safe to use in all cars, trucks, SUV’s, boat motors, marine engines, tractors, motorhomes, motorcycles, ATV’s, snowmobiles, jet skis, lawnmowers, snow blowers, tillers, weed trimmers, golf carts, power washers and generators. Use in gas, gas/oil mixtures, oxygenated fuel, reformulated gas, and diesel fuel.

One ounce of STA-BIL Fuel Stabilizer will keep 2-1/2 gallons of fuel fresh for 12 months. Using twice the recommended dosage will keep fuel fresh for up to 24 months.

I don't see why a Volt owner couldn't fill the tank, add a fuel stabilizer and keep that fuel in the tank for a year. If one uses 10 gallons of fuel in a year, I would say he or she has stopped using gasoline cold turkey.

[Vladimir1978]

Originally Posted by E. Haskell

1.
2. I've heard the plug in Prius is supposed to go about 6-10 miles on battery power alone. The Volt is supposed to go 40 miles. That makes the Prius a turd in comparison....old technology that will NOT allow you to break free from the pump. The Volt would be a game-changer and the Prius would be nothing more than a 2nd rate band-aid.

I've heard that the Volt runs on unicorn blood and that if you click your heels 3 times and say 'there's no place like home', it has a 10% proc on just transporting you there immediately like the transporting machine in that Stephen King short story, The Jaunt.

Basing assumptions on PR and unknown technology on BOTH sides is assinine.

[E. Haskell]

Originally Posted by Vladimir1978

I've heard that the Volt runs on unicorn blood and that if you click your heels 3 times and say 'there's no place like home', it has a 10% proc on just transporting you there immediately like the transporting machine in that Stephen King short story, The Jaunt.

Basing assumptions on PR and unknown technology on BOTH sides is assinine.

So we the members of a GM website shouldn't talk about, speculate and guesstimate ALL we want about what could possibly be GM's biggest vehicle introduction in the last 30+ years?

Please. Lay down the crack pipe.

[JBsZ06]

Originally Posted by JBsZ06

Because this is ground breaking technology that will truly better the environment, and the economy I believe a tax break is warrantied.

Lets not forget ...the more electric hybrid vehicles there are out there...The more corvettes and camaros GM can sell..! (I'm kidding) but as an enthusiast its not a bad idea....

I'll be tooling around in my corvette for less money when more and more consumers are driving Chevy volts...

The demand for high test gas will be lower... and given our free market system....thats gotta mean lower prices for high test gas...(kidding yet again)

I'm all for as many people as possible buying chevy volts.

How bout you?

Prius or Volt? which would you prefer american consumers spend their second largest purchase on after their homes?

Don't we allow the government to give tax breaks to homeowners ?

[furyagain]

i don't understand...
you guys keep saying "Free" 40 miles

mm does it mean you charge it for the night..
then you drive it for 40 miles next days????


the only car which may have free miles..
are those run on solor panel hehe
mm

may be we can install solor panel at home.. to charge the house battery first
then at night we plug in the car to the house 's main battery pack

[JBsZ06]

Originally Posted by furyagain

i don't understand...
you guys keep saying "Free" 40 miles

mm does it mean you charge it for the night..
then you drive it for 40 miles next days????


the only car which may have free miles..
are those run on solor panel hehe
mm

may be we can install solor panel at home.. to charge the house battery first
then at night we plug in the car to the house 's main battery pack

I don't think anyone expects even the electric hybrid like Volt would offer no cost mileage but the cost to charge at night does make the cost per mile quite low especially compared to gasoline only vehicles paying 4 or 5 bucks a gallon.