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GM Employee Questions Ram Pickup Figure

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#1 ·
Wards Auto News

July 2, 2015

Article Quotes:

A General Motors staffer called into question Fiat Chrysler’s claims to have reached a 20% take-rate for the diesel 3.0L V-6 in the Ram 1500 pickup.

“Our numbers say it’s about half that,” the employee told WardsAuto.

For decades, WardsAuto has tracked this data, so this is what our spreadsheets say: Through April, which marks the halfway point of the 2015 model year, FCA has installed the EcoDiesel V-6 in 14.4% of the 257,902 4x2 and 4x4 Ram 1500 pickups.

It’s possible GM’s skepticism is based on ’14 model-year results. The diesel went on sale late in the first quarter of 2014 in the Ram and achieved a mere 4.2% penetration rate when the model year ended in September.

But by that point, FCA says its internal data shows a number of customers had come to embrace the new engine, which represents the first light-duty diesel in a fullsize pickup. For its torque, efficiency and smoothness, it won Ward’s 10 Best Engines trophies in 2014 and 2015.

Last September, following brisk demand, officials said FCA would ramp up the mix to 20% from the initial plan of 10%, applied to ’15 production.

“To date, the EcoDiesel mix varies by month, but we’re generally running 15% to 18% (although we hit 30% in November),” writes Dave Elshoff, head of Ram Truck media relations, in an email to WardsAuto. He describes EcoDiesel demand as “overwhelming.”

For calendar 2015, Elshoff says the EcoDiesel take-rate is running at 18%. “We’re still ramping up to the 20% goal, but overall Ram 1500 sales keep increasing and make for a moving target,” he writes.
 
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#22 ·
Agreed! My favourite recent competitor quote was when De Nysschen was asked about Lincoln, and said something to the tune of "Lincoln has a lot of talented people over there, I don't think they need my input."

Classy.
As.
#@&%.

Love it. I don't agree with everything he says and does, but mucho respecto for that response.
 
#5 ·
I remember back in the mid 2000's when Jeep offered a 2.8L VM diesel in their Liberty Limited.They already had the MB Bluetec diesel in their Grand Cherokee.Anyway,back to the liberty,they were going to offer it for one year to see what the 'take rate' would be.If memory serves,they allowed for 18k diesel units,and HOPED that they would sell.They were overwhelmed with orders for the new Liberty diesels,so much so they offered them again in 06,which I bought one for my wife.My point: GM stated that diesels weren't necessary in the 1/2 tons.I see the article from a GM person being nothing more then trying to justify the lack,or want,of a diesel in the 1500 series of trucks,maybe even suv's and crossovers.Sour grapes is all it is.Ram is pretty much selling every diesel 1500 they have,even though most dealers only carry the higher trim levels.If one wanted to,you can choose the tradesman and option it out so it's really nice,WITH the diesel and still come in under 40k.Just sayin'...
 
#89 · (Edited)
I remember back in the mid 2000's when Jeep offered a 2.8L VM diesel in their Liberty Limited.They already had the MB Bluetec diesel in their Grand Cherokee.Anyway,back to the liberty,they were going to offer it for one year to see what the 'take rate' would be.If memory serves,they allowed for 18k diesel units,and HOPED that they would sell.They were overwhelmed with orders for the new Liberty diesels,so much so they offered them again in 06,which I bought one for my wife.My point: GM stated that diesels weren't necessary in the 1/2 tons.I see the article from a GM person being nothing more then trying to justify the lack,or want,of a diesel in the 1500 series of trucks,maybe even suv's and crossovers.Sour grapes is all it is.Ram is pretty much selling every diesel 1500 they have,even though most dealers only carry the higher trim levels.If one wanted to,you can choose the tradesman and option it out so it's really nice,WITH the diesel and still come in under 40k.Just sayin'...
'chief..... the US market CRD 3.0 TD ( MB ) equipped Grand Cherokee was built in the 2007 and 2008 MYR.

( There is reference on the internet to both a 2008.5 and in some cases a 2009 MYR - the last of which never formally existed. )

Technically, because of the all of the ways all of the terms using ' Blue ' and 'tec' or 'TEC' OR 'Tec' in them evolved - both @ MB and elsewhere including in the media both correctly and incorrectly, you 'can say' the CRDs had elements of 'Blue XXXX' in them.

But and this is the big 'but', they did not include an SCR system - which is what Blue'tec' evolved to eventually mean - for over here first, and then elsewhere later.

More specifically, and within the Blue xxxx framework, they did have a big ass, fully integrated advanced, EGR function with lowered compression and different fuel trimming etc etc + a DPF ie a fairly strong, for the immediate moment, non Urea / SCR scrubber - 'de NOx' effort. The '07s nonetheless, due to extremely rapid regulatory changes were not sold as New..... in five States including Cali. The 2008s I can no longer remember, but towards the end ie fall 2008 ( '2008.5s') they were precluded from something like seven, or eight, or ten. or eleven ?.


Also, and again, to keep this a barely manageable post, MB was not as fast with USA Bluetec ( SCR / Urea ) in their own products as many seem to think.

The somewhat early arriving ? 2007 MYR E 320 was the first, but the ML, R, and GL did not for the USA, receive SCR / Urea Blutec 'tech' until the 2009 MYR.

So there were the 2007 and 2008s without.

(Sprinters and things related are their own story.)

( These and the 2007 / 2008 GC TDs...... are late model Class 1/2 - Tier 2 'BO' vehicles..... for some...... assuming you changed oil...... early..... and often....And used 'good fuel'.) :yup::eek::)

Again, with sure reference for the USA only, any OM 642 3.0 TD equipped product with some variation of 'CRD', or 'CDi' or 'CDI' is not SCR equipped while those with SCR have some kind of a 'Bluetec' designation.

There are variations in non SCR equipped OM642 product outside the scope of this post; basically, to American retail eyes, with either some sort of a half assed ( in a good way ) or fully developed Lean NOx Trap System or something 'in between' in a practical sense.

May have some of the minutia wrong with all this; it is a way more complicated subject area than one might think. Lots of ( small ) exceptions to the rules from time to time in a sense.



______________

Dammit, now I want one. :rant:
Yeah..... sigh.

Apparently a really rare bird.

Even surviving ( Dodge ) close cousin / Perkins D equipped product are super rare as well.

Found this on the one above - what a hoot.

A reported 16.5 Quart oil capacity - and the ether bottle on the firewall.

Must have mixed this one up somehow; reportedly from Montana originally.

http://www.sweptline.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=26468
 
#6 ·
Typical useless small minded GM middle management.

They can't believe the world is actually different from their little Midwestern view of it.

The Caddy guys were dumbfounded that MB could produce a car as good as the new S-Class. The openly said they didn't think it could be done. This is no different. Sergio looks at how the world works and sees that commercial vehicles world round work best with diesels and so doesn't buy the Detroit myth. And proves it wrong. And now GM guys are aghast.... I love seeing ignorance crash into reality...




;)
 
#19 ·
Typical useless small minded GM middle management.

They can't believe the world is actually different from their little Midwestern view of it.
What is your source of information, that allows you decry so loudly from your soap-box?

I love it when people defend something with little to no knowledge of the situation at hand, just because "it's what they wanna believe!" I'm not say'in, I'm just say'in..............

It appears EVERYBODY is looking at the numbers in a different way, but the view from my "crystal ball", 20% does appear significantly higher than anything possible.
 
#7 ·
How about they forget about it and get the Colorado/Canyon Diesel out and worry about their various other problems and not another OEM's take rate on an engine.

Wait. Even better yet. IF GM had any balls years ago, they could have beaten RAM to the punch with their in house 4.5 Duramax.
 
#71 · (Edited)
How about they forget about it and get the Colorado/Canyon Diesel out and worry about their various other problems and not another OEM's take rate on an engine.

Wait. Even better yet. IF GM had any balls years ago, they could have beaten RAM to the punch with their in house 4.5 Duramax.
It is.... even worse than that.

One of the most epic GM fails in history - one likely partially self generated plus with really bad outside 'advice' .... is not having both this ED 3.0 - and a 4.0 / 4.5 DM.

And they had done almost all the work anyway........

And yeah, ahead of Ram for at least 'just' the two TDs would have..... changed the outcomes for a lot more than just GM.

And yes, with ZF / FCA / GM sourced first class 8sp CATs eventually along the timeline. ( The 6sp CATS would have been fine for a good and useable earlier period. )


So nobody feels left out, later also with perhaps some...... or all of the various types of excellent GM electrical hybridization efforts. ( GM just is not the one for HHs - which would also be swell. Especially with a big vehicle TD. )

With 'HD' external electrical power provision - ala the 'ole flywheel / 'IMA' system, even a milder TD / EH would have been 'imo' unstoppable.

And then you would have / would now wheel around all that..... as indicated.
 
#8 ·
GM refuses to accept that the diesel take rate is substantial. They need to get their own diesel model to market already. It was stupid to cancel the 4.5L motor, and it's even more foolish to not offer something similar now in the half ton and 3/4 ton trucks.

GM's lack of a diesel option now is their own fault. That's something they need to correct right away.
 
#9 ·
Wards Auto News

July 2, 2015

Article Quotes:

A General Motors staffer called into question Fiat Chrysler’s claims to have reached a 20% take-rate for the diesel 3.0L V-6 in the Ram 1500 pickup.

“Our numbers say it’s about half that,” the employee told WardsAuto.

For decades, WardsAuto has tracked this data, so this is what our spreadsheets say: Through April, which marks the halfway point of the 2015 model year, FCA has installed the EcoDiesel V-6 in 14.4% of the 257,902 4x2 and 4x4 Ram 1500 pickups.
So, while the GM employee was incorrect, in point of fact Fiat Chrysler has not reached a 20% take rate.

"B-B-B-B-But Sergio is a genius, etc., etc., etc.." - MonaroSS

;)
 
#11 ·
Well they exceeded it with 30% one month, so this is an average take rate in progress which is averaging higher and higher. I bet if you took your average from the start of the 30% take rate it is probably above the 20% target. It all comes down to when you start counting from...

Net in the end is FCA are selling diesel at very high take rates unheard of at GM because GM always sabotages anything out of the norm that could threaten someone's internal little empire/gang they have built for themselves.

That's why GM needs Sergio to break up those gangs that make GM always underperform their potential.



;)
 
#10 ·
I was with a Ram dealership at that time. The poor penetration was not due to the the public not being interested. We simply did not have the trucks to sell. A huge number of people wanted to at least try the truck out, and we sold everyone we could get. The issue was the supply. The engine was not being produced in quantities to fill Jeep Grand Cherokee, Ram 1500, and Promaster Vans. Everyone of those units with the 3.0 diesel sold.
 
#14 ·
Correctamundo! I've driven the diesel 1500 and it's a nice rig. It's supply not demand that's limiting the take rate! This GM employee must be married to that "young millennial" who kept spouting off her "millennial" opinion to the GM brass.
 
#25 ·
It means nothing who was the first to offer a diesel in a 1500.That was then,this is now.Ford has gdi turbos,Ram has turbo diesels,and GM has......NA Gassers.Yes gm will come out with a diesel option on the midsize twins,but they already shot themselves in the foot by limiting the diesel option to extended cab worktrucks,and crewcab higher trims.They should offer the diesel in all configs to get the customers who will not buy a CC,such as myself.Nor do I want a stripped down work truck.They never fail to disappoint...
 
#35 · (Edited)
It matters that the journos get the facts wrong.

And the thing about that award winning 6.2 - it was 'once size fits all' literally in the sense that it was available in everything from 1/2 to 1 tons. And now we have this condition where the 3/4 ton diesels simply can't work in the 1/2 tons.

It was not an insignificant blip on the radar screen as some might argue with the '78 Dodge and Olds/C10 diesels either. It was very popular, very much praised in the media and available for nearly ten years.

It had a huge impact and long staying power. It's not some kind of blip or minor exception. That's why its an unforgivable error in this story.
 
#27 · (Edited)
For decades, WardsAuto has tracked this data, so this is what our spreadsheets say: Through April, which marks the halfway point of the 2015 model year, FCA has installed the EcoDiesel V-6 in 14.4% of the 257,902 4x2 and 4x4 Ram 1500 pickups.

The 4x2 installation rate is 8.4%, while 17.2% of 4x4s get the diesel, according to our data.
First, would that six month 257,903 build figure be a mixture of 1500, 2500 and 3500?
and secondly, that's a build rate to fill inventory, not a selling rate which could be less...
 
#28 · (Edited)
Isn't it amazing that you don't hear from a GM staffer in the design , quality and performance depts , of problems with GM's brands , do you ? It is always much more preferred to trash another manufacturer's products . In this bloated corporate giant , in my opinion , its always about keeping your place on the ladder by making no waves with independent thought and just pleasing the executive above you . This kind of mindless ethic permeates the government employee ranks . It begs the question , did this nose rubbing start with the government or business ? In the vehicle manufacturing business , there are a few that management is streamlined , with a tightly focused product lineup and really good vehicle turnover . Which type would you like to work for ??
 
#30 ·
Whatever the true take rate is, there can be little doubt that there was/is a pent up demand for a half ton diesel pickup. The coming Nissan and Toyota diesels with the 5.0 Cummins are not going to be as eco friendly as the Ram, but will have more towing capacity. They will be hitting a different part of the half ton market that I am no so sure really exists. It is basically a heavy half ton with specs that match the LB7 Duramax which of course was a 25-3500 in the early 2000's. Ram I think found the key to success even though it really pisses off the Ram/Cummins guys that really wanted the Big C in their half ton. Ram has enough power to get half ton work done, and get good economy. The 5.0 Cummins will get light to medium work done with economy that from the sounds of it wont be much better than the full power diesels offered by the big three. Price on these will also be a big consideration. I would not look for them to be much cheaper the than the full power options already out there, but we will see. There is a lot of technology that goes into these motors regardless of the power output. The running gear for the 5.0 Cummins, at least from Nissan, specs like a HD 3/4 ton pickup, all of it appears to be outsourced. I really don't see how they will be able to offer this pickup at a price that will appeal to anyone except a Nissan pickup fan, and judging by their sales on the current Titan, there are not many of them.

GM's decision not partake in this segment will continue to be questioned. I don't really consider the Canyon to competing head on in this segment but who knows, maybe it will. Considering GM, by reports had the 4.5 sitting on the shelf, it seemed pretty low risk, but I dont build pickups for a living either. It couldn't have failed any worse than the hybrid 1500.
 
#37 ·
Man, everyone usually gets up in arms about the wording of GM press releases and when a GM person has what I can a "Hmmmm, is that really true" moment people go after that instead of the original press release?
Not everyone is getting up in arms, the they point out the obvious GM Culture of Arrogance that both BUSH & OBAMA Administration couldn't stand.
 
#46 ·
I've driven lots of diesels and several diesel Grand Cherokee's the 3.0L diesel is one of the best diesel engines ive driven, has plenty of power and returned rather impressive fuel economy figures in a grand Cherokee i know the figures will be different for a pick up but still.
Last time I checked the diesel in the Grand Cherokee put out more torque then the 5.7L hemi.
Maybe someone in GM is not happy FCA are selling good numbers with an engine they could of had?
 
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#49 ·
I think the whole point is that FCA is selling 1/2 ton LD diesels right now,and no one else is,period.Their sales are not failing.It might not be what they say,but they are building and selling ld diesels.GM,Ford,Nissan,Toyota are not.The folks that want a light duty diesel pickup truck only have to go as far as their nearest Ram dealer and buy one.We all know other oems are coming out with diesel midsize,and 1/2 tons.The question is,will GM ever do it?
 
#51 ·
I can tell you that my local ram megastore had about 10 or 11 diesel 1500's on the lot last month.I looked on the site yesterday and all were gone,with a new batch 'in transit'.So they are selling here,and pretty fast too,and this isn't a big market either.I am inclined to believe that fca sells a lot more then 4.5k units in a quarter.Jmho,nuthin more.
 
#53 ·
A "General Motor's staffer"????!!! Are you frigging kidding me??

If this was a key GM individual or at least someone at GM who keeps tracks of numbers and the competition in areas like this, then I'd throw some plausibility.

But as the "National Enquirer" and even "Fox News" on occasion has proven, you can find any people anywhere that will say anything when a microphone or reporter in in front of them and they have attention.

Ward's automatically used this person as an official spokesman for GM's skepticism, but in his instance, until there's evidence proving otherwise, he's doing nothing more than voicing an opinion.

Here in California, where "environmental" surcharges on gasoline have sent it up to similar prices as diesel in many areas, the fuel economy advantage of diesel and the huge agriculture and rural world of California (yes, despite the image, most all of Cali is rural and agriculturally based) it seems that most all new pickups on the road are diesel Rams. Also, consider that we're having something of a construction boom here and Arizona. Again, Rams diesels seem to be everywhere.

Being that Rams are also huge in Texas and I suspect diesel is also in the general ballpark with gasoline in price, combined with it's superior fuel economy and generally higher torque and longer life next to gasoline engines, I'd wager that this "GM staffer" probably doesn't know what he's talking about.

From where I'm standing and what I personally see, it's fully plausible that Ram is selling 20% diesel being that over here they seem to be running at the very least, a third.
 
#61 ·
I'm not a GM hater,not by any means.Neither am I brand loyal,but I PREFER chevy trucks.This I have said on this board many times,I keep my options open to what my needs are,and buy accordingly.But I do have some healthy criticism about how GM tells us,the customers,what we don't want or need.I also have said on another thread that GM's decision to only offer the diesel in the midsize twins in the wt ext cab,and the rest has to be a crew cabs is just plain stupid thinking.Also saying that the 1/2 tons don't need a diesel option,when in fact they do,and will eventually,because they will have to.Then a unidentified GM staffer writes an article trashing the sales figures of fca's diesel 1/2 ton.To what purpose? Who really cares? They build them,they sell all they build,so it's all good.Believe me,if I wanted a 1/2 ton diesel,I would already have one in my driveway.
 
#67 · (Edited)
One, in support of all that .... plus some interesting light on the second fumble by WardsAuto and the GM person...... we have the following - from WardsAuto ;).......... - which they also managed to 'forget'. :eek:

( Then again, it was kinda' a slow news cycle, and anything about FCAU has been all positive - and often at the explicit and or implicit expense of others. )



* QUOTE *


Ram CEO Says 29-MPG EcoDiesel Pickups Will Be Plentiful

2015 North American International Auto Show


Jan 27, 2015

Byron Pope | WardsAuto


DETROIT – Ram CEO Bob Hegbloom scoffs at the notion the 29-mpg (8.1 L/100 km) version of the Ram 1500 EcoDiesel will be difficult to find on dealer lots as some have suggested, comparing the pickup to some low-volume high-mileage models offered by other automakers.

Announced during the recent 2015 North American International Auto Show, the ’15 Ram 1500 EcoDiesel HFE will deliver the 29-mpg highway rating, a 1-mpg (0.4 km/L) improvement over the standard model 1500 with an EcoDiesel mill.

To achieve the high fuel-economy rating, the HFE features a unique trim package on the Ram Express and high-volume Ram 1500 Tradesman Quad Cab 4-door body with a 6-ft., 4-in. (23.1-m) bed and 20-in. wheels. It also has wheel-to-wheel sidesteps and a tri-fold tonneau cover, which improve aerodynamics.

“We’ve never offered a diesel in that configuration because we wanted to maintain a low-price point,” Hegbloom tells WardsAuto. “But (customers) came to us and said, ‘We want the diesel in that truck.’ The only pieces we added besides the diesel are a tonneau cover and side steps. It will be available everywhere in the country.”

Demand for the Ram 1500’s equipped with the 3.0L diesel V-6, a 2015 Ward’s 10 Best Engines recipient, has been strong. Hegbloom says the current take rate is about 10%, but demand for the diesel has been so great Ram has increased capacity and the 20% take rate is expected when the additional volume is available later this quarter.

“We haven’t seen demand slow,” he says. “We’re really proud of this.”

Hegbloom, a 27-year Chrysler veteran who took over the role of Ram CEO from Reid Bigland last year, hopes to continue the sales momentum the brand has enjoyed. He says Ram has posted 56 consecutive monthly sales increases, largely by conquesting buyers from Ford and General Motors.

In full-year 2014, Ram U.S. sales were up 23.6% vs. 2013 to 439,789, according to WardsAuto data.

Hegbloom doesn’t guarantee the impressive sales streak will continue, but says he and his team are doing their best to keep continue the momentum.

“I’ve been around before where we’ve had spikes in sales where you get an increase and then start to decay,” he says. “The nice thing with this, going back nearly 5 years, is we’ve had sustained growth. We’re gaining share and volume and we just want to keep this pace up.” -


* END QUOTE *

http://wardsauto.com/sales-marketing/ram-ceo-says-29-mpg-ecodiesel-pickups-will-be-plentiful


Of course, one can imagine the angst the reported Ram 1500 ED / 60 % conquest rate of other fullsize brand Pick Ups has created...... with no end in sight for demand..... plus the disappointing mpgs both rated and experienced ......for certain 'other' new full size PUs.....
 
#70 ·
You should just stopped right there A123, the rest of your babble is noise....................


........................

Demand for the Ram 1500’s equipped with the 3.0L diesel V-6, a 2015 Ward’s 10 Best Engines recipient, has been strong.

Hegbloom says the current take rate is about 10%

but demand for the diesel has been so great Ram has increased capacity and the 20% take rate is expected when the additional volume is available later this quarter.............
 
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