GM + Chrysler: What it may look like post-merger

[gmishistory]

Originally Posted by Uzzy

that is your most coherent, relevant and integgigent post to date ...and that is correct, I was going to say that in my post, but I thought I could get some semblance of a response out of you if I baited it properly. But the banks are a major factor in the trouble we're in in the first place. If GM were to not sell cars anymore, why should it exist at all?

to be the worlds largest health care company. Lets face it gm is the worlds largest health care company, they just sell cars to fund themselves....

[MR.Corvette]

^ That is the Sad Truth. The health care & pension costs per car are too much, The US Government has done NOTHING to balance the trade ...allowing the Big 3 to carry the burden of those costs and causing them to become unable to compete on today's market where the competition has those costs provided by their Government.

It is an honorable thing to pay the obligations you agreed to do...in spite of the fact that it is costing an arm & a leg to do it !!...but something shopuld have been done long ago to stop this insane trade deficit...No Free Market can function when the palying feild is this lopsided to benefit the import companies.

Solutions ?....Tax deductible interest on American Cars...Loans or lease payments are 100% deductions, ONLY on American Autos....Import tax on ALL non Michigan based companies, like 20% of the MSRP....and Limit the number of imports to 1990 levels.


THAT should do it.

[gmishistory]

Originally Posted by MR.Corvette

^ That is the Sad Truth. The health care & pension costs per car are too much, The US Government has done NOTHING to balance the trade ...allowing the Big 3 to carry the burden of those costs and causing them to become unable to compete on today's market where the competition has those costs provided by their Government.

It is an honorable thing to pay the obligations you agreed to do...in spite of the fact that it is costing an arm & a leg to do it !!...but something shopuld have been done long ago to stop this insane trade deficit...No Free Market can function when the palying feild is this lopsided to benefit the import companies.

Solutions ?....Tax deductible interest on American Cars...Loans or lease payments are 100% deductions, ONLY on American Autos....Import tax on ALL non Michigan based companies, like 20% of the MSRP....and Limit the number of imports to 1990 levels.


THAT should do it.

I think that GM should go into bankruptcy and off load the Pensions on to the government and then toss out the UAW/CAW and other union contracts. Otherwise any bailout would fail. The government should require a bankruptcy filing as a condition for these auto companies to get any bail out money otherwise we are only continuing down the same path also known as Same Crap Different Day... I would rather toss 50 billion down the drain of a toilet then to just not have any real change... GM Ceo must go, Ford Ceo is new so he did not start the problem, Chrysler ceo is new too aHome Depot.

However if we extend any deducations for loans to american car companies then we would have to allow it for foreign autos as well. Also what about the transplants since they make and sell some cars that are only for North America? Are they american too? I dont think their is such a thing as an American Car company.

Also the EU is looking into any auto bail out as against International law. http://polizeros.com/2008/11/14/eu-c...maker-bailout/
The European Union is ready to take action at the World Trade Organisation if it judges that US state aid for its struggling auto industry is ‘illegal,’ European Commission head Jose Manuel Barroso said on Friday. ‘We are looking at the (US) plan. The plan has not yet been made official but certainly, if it amounts to illegal state aid we will act at the WTO’ WTO rules “prohibit countries from subsidizing domestic industries
in ways that hurt foreign competitors” according to CNN. Ok, so why didn’t they complain about US bailouts of financial institutions?

[ModerateRight]

Originally Posted by MR.Corvette

^ That is the Sad Truth. The health care & pension costs per car are too much, The US Government has done NOTHING to balance the trade ...allowing the Big 3 to carry the burden of those costs and causing them to become unable to compete on today's market where the competition has those costs provided by their Government.

I keep seeing this argument, but what people here don't seem to understand is that most other Americans are paying through the teeth for health care (assuming they even have it), and few if any have pensions.

The issue isn't the “supposed” (at least regarding the auto industry) trade deficit causing a financial strain on the big three, it's the American workers being compensated in a way that's inconsistent with the rest of the country.

I see no reason why tax dollars should be used to bailout the auto industry, tariffs applied to imported goods, or kickbacks given for buying domestic, just to allow the auto industry to continue living in the past. If we absolutely need to help out in order to prevent them going under fine - loans in-exchange for heavy ownership in the companies and serious strings attached, including putting compensation in-line with the rest of the country.

I think that GM should go into bankruptcy and off load the Pensions on to the government and then toss out the UAW/CAW and other union contracts. Otherwise any bailout would fail. The government should require a bankruptcy filing as a condition for these auto companies to get any bail out money otherwise we are only continuing down the same path also known as Same Crap Different Day... I would rather toss 50 billion down the drain of a toilet then to just not have any real change... GM Ceo must go, Ford Ceo is new so he did not start the problem, Chrysler ceo is new too aHome Depot.

I absolutely agree. If the courts could guarantee the auto companies would honor their warranties, and the companies offered big discounts just to keep customers coming through the doors, I'm not sure it would affect them long term.

[MR.Corvette]

OK, the Problem with Chap 11, is that Americans WILL lose their jobs, (not just in the auto industry per se) & past auto workers will lose their pensions & the Government (you & me) will end up supporting them anyway.

Better we allow GM & the others to pay the past obligations and DEMAND that the the USA trade laws protect the American workers from the current trade imbalances...rather than allowing GM to abandon those obligations in the name of a "Free Market"...Because the COST of doing that will be MUCH greater than any bailout....and WE will be the ones paying the price.

It has been estimated that the initial cost of Chap 11 of the Big 3 will be well over $200 billion !!!...that is a ***** load more than the $50 billion they are seeking....and remember GM alone has $68 Billion in bonds to guarantee the "loan" !!!

This is a not even a question...it is a easy done deal.

....and of course the "import" countries are going to oppose it...even tho they support the workers who build those cars to compete against USA auto makers...Hey, THEY are doing the job that American Government has failed to do....Protecting the citizens of their country !!!

[gmishistory]

Originally Posted by ModerateRight

I keep seeing this argument, but what people here don't seem to understand is that most other Americans are paying through the teeth for health care (assuming they even have it), and few if any have pensions.

The issue isn't the “supposed” (at least regarding the auto industry) trade deficit causing a financial strain on the big three, it's the American workers being compensated in a way that's inconsistent with the rest of the country.

I see no reason why tax dollars should be used to bailout the auto industry, tariffs applied to imported goods, or kickbacks given for buying domestic, just to allow the auto industry to continue living in the past. If we absolutely need to help out in order to prevent them going under fine - loans in-exchange for heavy ownership in the companies and serious strings attached, including putting compensation in-line with the rest of the country.





I absolutely agree. If the courts could guarantee the auto companies would honor their warranties, and the companies offered big discounts just to keep customers coming through the doors, I'm not sure it would affect them long term.

maybe gm should expand their partnership with toyota and start simular ones with other automakers like Chrysler and Ford. Imagine Chrysler and Ford and GM using a platform like Zeta for their own large size cars, while they use a Chrysler Minivan platform for their minvans and a Ford/Volvo S60/S80 platform for FWD large size models. That can have some interesting ideas each with its own unique looks with its Chrysler minivans

[MR.Corvette]

Originally Posted by gmishistory

maybe gm should expand their partnership with toyota and start simular ones with other automakers like Chrysler and Ford. Imagine Chrysler and Ford and GM using a platform like Zeta for their own large size cars, while they use a Chrysler Minivan platform for their minvans and a Ford/Volvo S60/S80 platform for FWD large size models. That can have some interesting ideas each with its own unique looks with its Chrysler minivans

....actually that IS a relevant direction, minus Toyota !!!...as involving them would defeat the effort...but to combine and share resources of the Big 3 would give them a market advantage unmatched by any import company.

[ModerateRight]

Originally Posted by MR.Corvette

OK, the Problem with Chap 11, is that Americans WILL lose their jobs, (not just in the auto industry per se) & past auto workers will lose their pensions & the Government (you & me) will end up supporting them anyway.

Better we allow GM & the others to pay the past obligations and DEMAND that the the USA trade laws protect the American workers from the current trade imbalances...rather than allowing GM to abandon those obligations in the name of a "Free Market"...Because the COST of doing that will be MUCH greater than any bailout....and WE will be the ones paying the price.

…

The job losses for chapter 11 are not necessarily high, it does however allow the auto makers to get rid of bs agreement and run their companies like 21st century businesses.

Free market aside, applying trade laws to compensate for poor business is just insane. Inexpensive (and often imported) products fuel the majority of this country's businesses.

What happens when the cost of goods rise due to tariffs? How about when product prices go up to compensate? Then when wages rises to match the cost of living? The big three end up paying more for labor and parts and STILL can't compete – only you've thrown the rest of the country under a bus in the process.

And in all that did the big three become more efficient and competitive? No, just business as usual.

Edit: clarity

[ModerateRight]

Originally Posted by gmishistory

maybe gm should expand their partnership with toyota and start simular ones with other automakers like Chrysler and Ford. Imagine Chrysler and Ford and GM using a platform like Zeta for their own large size cars, while they use a Chrysler Minivan platform for their minvans and a Ford/Volvo S60/S80 platform for FWD large size models. That can have some interesting ideas each with its own unique looks with its Chrysler minivans

I agree, any collaboration that can make them more competitive should be considered.

[RedVee8]

Originally Posted by ModerateRight

I agree, any collaboration that can make them more competitive should be considered.

Not a worry as an anti competitive practice?

[MR.Corvette]

Originally Posted by ModerateRight

The job losses for chapter 11 are not necessarily high, it does however allow the auto makers to get rid of bs agreement and run their companies like 21st century businesses.

Free market aside, applying trade laws to compensate for poor business is just insane. Inexpensive (and often imported) products fuel the majority of this country's businesses.

What happens when the cost of goods rise due to tariffs? How about when product prices go up to compensate? Then when wages rises to match the cost of living? The big three end up paying more for labor and parts and STILL can't compete – only you've thrown the rest of the country under a bus in the process.

And in all that did the big three become more efficient and competitive? No, just business as usual.

Edit: clarity

Oh please ! ...Job losses for Chap 11 will be ... everyone who has a job in the USA, as it WILL effect YOUR paycheck in a loss of compensation...WHY ?..because even if your not willing to admit it, the USA auto makers Built this country,...established the lifestyle you take for granted, and to this day fuel the economic base of the nation...and NOW you want to get rid of them ???? ....& the BS agreements you refer to are OBLIGATIONS to the people who spent their LIVES on the line building cars...and for the most part,...great cars at that.

....and YOU think your have the RIGHT to slight them ???

The ONLY loser in that scenario is ...YOU & ME..

[ModerateRight]

Originally Posted by MR.Corvette

Oh please ! ...Job losses for Chap 11 will be ... everyone who has a job in the USA, as it WILL effect YOUR paycheck in a loss of compensation...WHY ?..because even if your not willing to admit it, the USA auto makers Built this country,...established the lifestyle you take for granted, and to this day fuel the economic base of the nation...and NOW you want to get rid of them ???? ....& the BS agreements you refer to are OBLIGATIONS to the people who spent their LIVES on the line building cars...and for the most part,...great cars at that.

....and YOU think your have the RIGHT to slight them ???

The ONLY loser in that scenario is ...YOU & ME..

Look I'm trying to be polite about this, if it come across as harsh I'm sorry. But our lifestyles are not the same.

For me and the +90% of this country who are non-union; we compete for jobs, work for raises and promotions, and realize the upside to the work is forging our own future. There's little or no seniority, rarely if ever a pension, and when your company hits hard times you could be let go for good with no chance of being hired back.

Careers are fast and furious, there's practically no loyalty to the company or the employee, and your best opportunities are often with the competition. Promotions that used to happen over a lifetime can happen overnight, and just as easily lost a year later.

It's survival of the fittest and it's BEEN America for decades.


Back to chapter 11, it's meant to help companies recover, not to end them. I don't want to see the big three die, that's my d*mn point – if we hand over cash will things change? Probably not. So won't the same thing happen again? Of course it will – only next time everyone goes home for good.

During the process they can do a little house keeping with regards to the agreements which are bleeding them dry.

Also I understand those agreements were made and are obligations – and I would agree that they should be upheld, if the big three were only trying to make more profit. But, at least with GM, they're dying, and unfortunately when your company runs out of money it's Game Over – it's time to address the issues and move forward, or pack up and go home.

Not a worry as an anti competitive practice?

Not really, they'd have to be competitive before they could become anti-competitive. In all seriousness though the companies working together would still face tough competition from the rest of the market, so until the companies got back on their feet it would be difficult for them to really be too dangerous (btw I'm assuming anything other than collaboration between the big three is out, based on the anti-import attitude from employees, I can't see anything else going over well).

[gmishistory]

Originally Posted by MR.Corvette

....actually that IS a relevant direction, minus Toyota !!!...as involving them would defeat the effort...but to combine and share resources of the Big 3 would give them a market advantage unmatched by any import company.

Gm already has a joint venture with toyota
New United Motor Manufacturing, Inc. is an automobile manufacturing plant in Fremont, California. The factory was an old General Motors plant originally opened in 1962 and is now a joint venture between GM and Toyota. When it reopened for production in 1984, it was the first automotive joint venture plant in the United States

currently it produces the toyota corola, matrix, Pontiac vibe

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NUMMI

If the big US 3 do hook up to share resources could that then be considered anti-competitive breaking both us and international laws? Would it lead to any price fixing or other back room deals were each would say we wont sell this car for over or under this price?

If chapter 11 is done correctly then the big us 3 wont go away, just the uaw

[96RIV]

GET RID OF THE UAW!!! that's all i have to say about that.

[MR.Corvette]

Originally Posted by 96RIV

GET RID OF THE UAW!!! that's all i have to say about that.

^^ LOL...that would seem to be the solution, however it is not. Why?...Because those workers are OWED what they need today and WE are the ones who must honor those commitments.

If you think the factory workers are overpaid or get too much compensation...well your probably right...BUT that has happened because the Government has not stepped up to the Game Level of play in the World Economy, hence the burden is upon GM, Ford & Chrysler to provide the social services to their employees that the Government is unwilling to underwrite...even tho the Import Companies are allowed to sell everything they make, regardless of where they make it, in the USA at a price advantage that the US Auto makers cannot match.

That is NOT a Free Market system...that is a SCAM.