To get federal aid, FL Senator wants Big 3 to meet 50 mpg by 2020

[ModerateRight]

Ok, I'm really not understanding the resistance to this other than ignorance and “tradition”.

There are hybrid cars getting ~50 mpg today, with more coming in the next year or two – all, I might add, for well under $30K and some as low as $19K.

Do you really believe the imports are going to stop there? No they aren't – efficiency is the latest trend and with over a decade to evolve their technology they may hit close to that number without any government regulations. And what for the big three if they take the same attitude as many of you; “f*ck it – it's impossible”?

The proposed regulations are meant to push the big three to be more competitive and make sure the tax payer money is going to good use, not just wasted during the next domestic slump.

[eurohazard]

Originally Posted by jbernie

I say.. is that the all new 2010 Pontiac G0.5 and Chevy Cramped? Will there be a Cadillac version with chrome 15s and a single HID light?

Good one!

I want to think the senator is trying to be like JFK....trying to motivate and push such an audacious idea so we as Americans can succeed. But I stand by what I said earlier, the guy is insane. I think we could have cars that get 50 mpg.....but it would resemble a first gen Geo Metro.

It'd have to be the same weight, same size, and same lack of features to keep the weight down (to include the 13" wheels and the tiny brakes to go with them). The car would NOT be safe to drive, unless it was built entirely of high strength steel.....but that would drive the cost up. THEN, for the "average" to be 50 mpg from the manufacturers.....people would actually have to buy the stupid thing. I want to see the FL senator first in line for his 2010 refresh of a 1989 Geo Metro.

[jzEllis]

i love how the assumption is that the American auto industry DOES NOT WANT TO INNOVATE! sure all GM wants to do is sell these huge gas guzzling trucks that NOBODY wants. people only make the trucks and full size sport utes the best selling vehicles in the world because they have no choice and the big three FORCED them to buy them!

people buy what they want. and no amount of legislation is gonna force that to change unless you take that into account. thats like saying we're gonna fine the gun industry for every gun they sell when the driving force behind them selling guns is the market demand for them.

we live in a society that allows us to be the most guilt free wasteful consumers in the world! there is NOTHING wrong with owning a Escalade or some other fuel guzzling vehicle. thats the owners choice. but if that vehicle is being used in such a way that it is completely unnecessary, ie transporting some profiling, image conscious owner to and from the mall all by their lonesome, then thats the owners fault! not GMs!

[ModerateRight]

Originally Posted by adplusone

Do the idiots in Congress really believe that GM (or any other maker) would sit on technology that would let them dominate the market?

No the problem is idiots like GM sold off the technology for a fast buck and are now slowly dying for it.

EV1 anyone? How difficult would have been to chuck a motorcycle motor in an EV1 to recharge it, and apply new quick-charging tech?

No, instead GM claimed there's no market for electric cars, sold off the patents to Chevron/Texaco, then had to rebuild from scratch just a few years later.

Some of us would have killed for an EV1, GM certainly would have snatched Toyota's efficiency image, and I highly doubt GM would be in the sales decline it is now (relative to the rest of the industry; ie factoring out the overall slump).

Maybe the rest of the country is tried of watching the GM train-wreck (and apparently now funding it).

[jzEllis]

Originally Posted by ModerateRight

No the problem is idiots like GM sold off the technology for a fast buck and are now slowly dying for it.

EV1 anyone? How difficult would have been to chuck a motorcycle motor in an EV1 to recharge it, and apply new quick-charging tech?

No, instead GM claimed there's no market for electric cars, sold off the patents to Chevron/Texaco, then had to rebuild from scratch just a few years later.

Some of us would have killed for an EV1, GM certainly would have snatched Toyota's efficiency image, and I highly doubt GM would be in the sales decline it is now (relative to the rest of the industry; ie factoring out the overall slump).

Maybe the rest of the country is tried of watching the GM train-wreck (and apparently now funding it).

i knew it was just a matter of time before someone brought the EV1 up. LOOK GM did NOT kill the electric car! the consumer killed it because the consumer thought a 100 mile range and an extremely expensive price tag were not worth it. they could barely get people to lease the darn things for the short trail period they were out. and it was not from a lack of press support or good marketing that took advantage of the fact that GM was ahead in the field of high tech electric vehicles.

in the end it was just not cost effective because NOBODY would buy them!

in fact look how most people are responding to the Volt! "what 40 thousand for that, you can only go fully electric for a few miles? thats dumb, who would buy that?" when toyota or honda brings out a car that is an obvious feel good marketing campaign to fuel economy, people point at it and say "wow, those Japanese know how to do it, they get it!" then buy a Sequoia or v8 4 runner and smile all the way off the lot. GM builds a FULL SIZE sport ute withe EVERYTHING the average consumer demands in the way of options and the SAME fuel economy as a Camry in the city, and they balk at a $15000, price increase!

when the hybrid Prius, and Honda insight first hit the roads it was a well know industry fact that they were LOOSING money on everyone sold. lucky for them that the fuel prices peaked like they did and the Prius managed to finally sell in profit making numbers.

[65 Skylark]

It is sad that politicians that do not even understand how a car works are the same people that tell the automakers what to do. Usually, in order to achieve high mileage you must sacrifice size. With a 50mpg mandate we will all be driving tiny eurotrash hatchbacks with dinky 1.0 liter engines.

[GM-Joe]

Originally Posted by smithb

Makes sense to me, Toyota and Honda (and BMW and Mercedes) will have 50mpg corporate average by then, so why can't American companies? This guy seems very knowledgable on the auto industry. Not to mention, everyone would love to have the type of car that gets 50mpg, and it would fit all their needs.

There is no way BMW or Benz could pull it off and still sell S classes, SUV's, and M series.

[greenrail]

Oh great! Another "out of touch with reality" Political Hack.....

What is even scarier, is that the Public continues to vote for people like this.

[jbernie]

Originally Posted by ModerateRight

Ok, I'm really not understanding the resistance to this other than ignorance and “tradition”.

There are hybrid cars getting ~50 mpg today, with more coming in the next year or two – all, I might add, for well under $30K and some as low as $19K.

Do you really believe the imports are going to stop there? No they aren't – efficiency is the latest trend and with over a decade to evolve their technology they may hit close to that number without any government regulations. And what for the big three if they take the same attitude as many of you; “f*ck it – it's impossible”?

The proposed regulations are meant to push the big three to be more competitive and make sure the tax payer money is going to good use, not just wasted during the next domestic slump.

1) if they want the Detorit automakers to be at 50mpg fleet average by 2020 and legislate it, then they need to legislate it for every single automaker who wishes to sell vehicles in the United States.

2) if they do want to legislate 50mpg then they need to offer ongoing tax breaks for R&D (all automakers) and probably offer more funding as there will bneed to be a massive amount of R&D to try and get this going.

3) you can't legislate against the laws of physics and ultimately this is the biggest hurdle in achieving the major MPG gains. Friction between the tires & the road, aero dynamics, power vs weight to get things moving and stay moving.

I personally am all for major improvements in fuel economy, we should all take responsability for the earth and the resources used, but at the same time I am realistic in that governments are oh so willing to set magical target numbers but do not ask them about how to finance it.

The government just makes the rules and unless you are a popular group you just need to figure out how to make it happen with your own cash and pray you can achieve it.

Re eurohazard's comment about the guy maybe wanting to be like JFK and inspiring people, maybe a stretch (but see the point), but you can inspire people to do amazing things when there is pretty much an unlimited budget in which to achieve. Go back and try and do the moon landings as a commercial venture..... then think about how far we would have gone, I think you might go closer to the moon with a handglider.

[jbernie]

Originally Posted by GM-Joe

There is no way BMW or Benz could pull it off and still sell S classes, SUV's, and M series.

100% agree, is it BMW or Mercedes or both who rarely meet the current CAFE numbers and just pay fines instead?

[Saturn69]

Originally Posted by Gung_Ho

Even if automakers didn't take the aid, the government is going to require 50 mpg by 2020 anyway.

No they won't. The requirement is 35mpg CAFE by 2020, they aren't going to re-up it to 50mpg within the same time frame.

[greenrail]

I have an even better idea, let's not allow any exceptions. Including the Richmobiles like Ferrari, Lamborghini, Rolls Royce, Bentley, etc. No Exceptions!!

Then the elite's can do their squawking!!!

Hell, if they feel it's good for the plain folks like the rest of us, then let those clowns take a rap too!

[ModerateRight]

Originally Posted by jbernie

1) if they want the Detorit automakers to be at 50mpg fleet average by 2020 and legislate it, then they need to legislate it for every single automaker who wishes to sell vehicles in the United States.

2) if they do want to legislate 50mpg then they need to offer ongoing tax breaks for R&D (all automakers) and probably offer more funding as there will bneed to be a massive amount of R&D to try and get this going.

3) you can't legislate against the laws of physics and ultimately this is the biggest hurdle in achieving the major MPG gains. Friction between the tires & the road, aero dynamics, power vs weight to get things moving and stay moving.

I completely agree with all but #3 - the issue isn't about physics, it's about changing the mindset.

The imports offer hybrid midsized cars with decent gas millage ranging from ~33/34 - ~50 mpg.

Where do the big three focus there hybrid technology; the Escalade, Tahoe, Aspen, Durango, Escape, Yukon, Mariner, and the Vue, the only cars they offer are the Aura (with 26/34) and the Malibu (with 26/34), both with questionable gas savings.

Why the focus on the declining SUV market? Do the big three really think they can keep SUV sales going into the future.

The energy would be better focused cutting a lot of the SUVs and building efficient cars.

i knew it was just a matter of time before someone brought the EV1 up. LOOK GM did NOT kill the electric car! the consumer killed it because the consumer thought a 100 mile range and an extremely expensive price tag were not worth it. they could barely get people to lease the darn things for the short trail period they were out. and it was not from a lack of press support or good marketing that took advantage of the fact that GM was ahead in the field of high tech electric vehicles.

in the end it was just not cost effective because NOBODY would buy them!

Really? And how did consumers kill the car, when the vehicle was only available as a lease and in very limited quantities? You find out these things when selling the vehicle, not by running a phone based poll designed to point out the car's flaws.

And regardless of what reasoning you come up with the fact is GM is trying to do the same thing with the Volt (hence my “how much would it have cost just to drop in a small charging motor in the EV1” comment), so obviously the demand is there – a smarter company would have either moved forward anyway to help lead the industry (*cough* Prius *cough*), or sat on the tech until the demand was there (ie: today).

[WildGMFan]

Has this political hack been living under a rock? I am appalled at what is happening to our country. If the government really wanted to fix things why didn't they do it 30 years ago during our first energy crisis. Deja-vu all over again.

This kind of legislation may work in populated areas where smaller fuel efficient cars are needed. But what about the rest of the country where trucks are needed for people who live and work on farms. America is just too big for this. They are trying to legislate what we drive. I'd like to see this guy drive a 50 mpg motorcycle working on the field towing a trailer full of hay.

Yes, he may be trying to inspire the big 3 to make it possible. But is America ready to change? I don't see the farmers of the midwest doing this because it is impossible. If they are going to legislate this. They also need to impose HIGH tariffs on the imports (this is something that should be done immediately). So much for fair trade. It is more like an imbalance of trade as the other countries have more restrictions on what they import from America.

Of course they won't. Really, why don't they just tell the big 3 along with the rest of the country to F!@# off. They already have with over 30 years of trade imbalance, high taxes on American companies, and legislation like CAFE pretty much putting the nail in the coffin for them.

Absolutely appalling government we have...*sigh*

[Saturn69]

Originally Posted by ModerateRight

Ok, I'm really not understanding the resistance to this other than ignorance and “tradition”.

There are hybrid cars getting ~50 mpg today, with more coming in the next year or two – all, I might add, for well under $30K and some as low as $19K.

Really? Where are they? There are no hybrid cars for sale in the U.S. that average 50mpg. None.

Originally Posted by ModerateRight

Do you really believe the imports are going to stop there? No they aren't – efficiency is the latest trend and with over a decade to evolve their technology they may hit close to that number without any government regulations. And what for the big three if they take the same attitude as many of you; “f*ck it – it's impossible”?

The proposed regulations are meant to push the big three to be more competitive and make sure the tax payer money is going to good use, not just wasted during the next domestic slump.