Fuel Cell Cars Are 15yrs. Off

[nsap]

ORLANDO, Fla. -- Don't expect to see fuel cell cars on the roads this decade.

General Motors has said it wants to develop a commercially viable fuel cell vehicle by 2010. But a panel of experts at the Electric Drive Transportation Association conference last week said the technology won't be ready for at least 15 years.

"The science is not there yet," said Bill Reinert, a senior systems engineer for Toyota Motor Corp., who works on hybrid and fuel cell vehicles.

Ethan Brown, industry and government affairs adviser for Ballard Power Systems Inc., a fuel cell supplier and research company, said the electricity that fuel cells produce is still too expensive to make them competitive with gasoline-powered engines.

The cost needs to come down to about $50 per kilowatt hour, and no automaker has said it is near that level.

The panel outlined these hurdles:



Fuel. The nation has no energy policy that calls for the creation of a system to produce and distribute hydrogen. Without one, there would be no way to replace gasoline because drivers could not refuel their fuel cell-powered cars. GM has estimated that it will cost at least $400 billion to equip the nation's gasoline stations with a hydrogen pump.


Safety. To get cars to travel between 200 and 400 miles per tank of hydrogen, stronger, safer tanks must be made.


Standards. There is no single set of standards that governs how hydrogen can be put into a vehicle. There also are no standards to address the technical aspects of the electric powertrain. The experts say a single set of standards would let engineers and suppliers cut development time of components. "If the U.S. really wanted to get serious, a uniform set of codes and standards needs to be adopted," Reinert said.


Technology and materials cost. Automakers do not have the facilities to mass produce fuel cells. Even if they did, the precious metals needed to produce fuel cells would make them too expensive for consumers. Engineers have to make fuel cells that are smaller, produce more power, work in cold temperatures and require cheaper materials.

Article Here

[mjd1001]

I do not know much about fuel cell vehicles...and what I do know doesn't excite me too much...but....
Didn't we hear back in the 1990's they were bout 10 years away? Then in 2000 didn't we hear again they were 10 years away? Now in 2004 they are 15 years away? I won't hold my breath waiting for one.

[camaro chris]

my guess is 20+ years

[Swahili]

For those really concerned with environmental policy, until we see fuel cells (if they really are the answer) then I think auto manufacturers should roll out a few more gas-electric hybrids. There's no harm in that. I guess the decision, when it comes down to producing them, is how much does it cost to develop and produce a new hybrid system for an existing vehicle and how much money will they make off of it.

[ackenda]

in gm, i hope there really is parallel research and development into fuel cells and--at the same time--hybrids. i'm confident that there is, but here's the deal....

i agree that the best bet for the short term is hybrids. gm is doing well by working them into the vehicles that are perceived to be the worst polluters on the road (even though they're not, but that's another topic). but they're not getting marketing benefit out of that because the vehicles--suv's and full-size trucks--still only get in the low 20s in gas mileage. so, while they "pollute less", the general public looks for those epa mpg numbers and my dad's '93, v8-powered silverado extended cab gets 23 mpg.

so, they also need a couple of cars that can bring them into numbers like 45 to 55 mpg. cobalt, malibu and ion come to mind. and how 'bout having the first lux/semi-lux nameplate to offer hybrid, putting a high-tech (and therefore younger-market) car on the road through buick.

anyway, gm then is still large enough to move on--and set more realistic timeframes for--fuel cell tech.

it seems to me that this sort of thing would start to look to the gen. public like gm is really the leading car-maker.

[carMuck]

I say more should be done with biodiesel. Its environmentally friendly and can use "infrastructure" already in place. Biodiesel can run in any diesel powered car or truck and can do so with little to no modification. Plus, biodiesel uses mostly natural ingredients which can be grown, and it doesn't have to processed nearly as much as hydrogen and could probably transported in a similar matter to our current fuels. Also, anti-gelling additives are getting better all the time, so any disadvantage in the winter will basically become slim to nil in a couple years.

[Askani]

Originally posted by carMuck@Sep 27 2004, 03:22 PM
I say more should be done with biodiesel. Its environmentally friendly and can use "infrastructure" already in place. Biodiesel can run in any diesel powered car or truck and can do so with little to no modification. Plus, biodiesel uses mostly natural ingredients which can be grown, and it doesn't have to processed nearly as much as hydrogen and could probably transported in a similar matter to our current fuels. Also, anti-gelling additives are getting better all the time, so any disadvantage in the winter will basically become slim to nil in a couple years.

You're right on target there... Diesel, and thus biodiesel is a real technology and can be implementede relatively quickly... The domestics already make awsome diesels, so there is no reason they can't scale the engines down to 4 & 6 cylinder models...

BTW. Does anybody know what the other corn-based fuel is? I know it's not diesel, it works with regular gas... I think I read about it a few years ago in GMHTP...

[ackenda]

Does anybody know what the other corn-based fuel is?

isn't it ethanol?

[ackenda]

.......yea, put a small-displacement diesel v8 in the first of the rear-drive impalas making something like 200 hp and it'd have 400 some-odd lb-ft of torque and get 35-38 mpg. that'd be great, cheap, reliable and bought by everyone.

(as long as the engine wasn't a $3,000 option......on a $28,000 impala--but i can imagine it.)

[mbb4nkk]

fuel cells might not be the answer either. The only exhaust they put off is water vapr/steam. that **** will be coming out of everycar, and raise the humidiity in an urban environment to near 100% all year around. That would not only be very uncomfortable but it would also screw with the plants.

[ackenda]

fuel cells might not be the answer either. The only exhaust they put off is water vapr/steam. that **** will be coming out of everycar, and raise the humidiity in an urban environment to near 100% all year around. That would not only be very uncomfortable but it would also screw with the plants.

<_<

wait! i've got the answer. no more wheeled, self-propelled transportation of any kind! hooray!

[ChevyLaxMan]

Originally posted by ackenda@Sep 27 2004, 06:53 PM

<_<

wait! i've got the answer. no more wheeled, self-propelled transportation of any kind! hooray!

lmao, better go find the ol' skateboard

[surferdude00711]

EQUIPP DEALERS WITH HYDROGEN STATIONS!

[mrfunji]

Originally posted by nsap@Sep 27 2004, 11:34 AM
"The science is not there yet," said Bill Reinert, a senior systems engineer for Toyota Motor Corp., who works on hybrid and fuel cell vehicles.

There goes the automotive press again. Geez if TOYOTA says the technology isn't there yet, then how could any other company be closer? I mean since their engineering is so much better than American Automakers (see other article on this board), GM couldn't have made some serious advances w/ patents. And don't even think GM's full hybrids will out perform Toyota's :argue: :argue: <_<

[Askani]

Originally posted by surferdude00711@Sep 27 2004, 07:26 PM
EQUIPP DEALERS WITH HYDROGEN STATIONS!

You know that's a pretty bad-*** idea...