Finger-pointing Begins as Senate Nixes Auto Vote

[Michael_S]

Originally Posted by eaton53

Looks like the Republicans are bound and determined to get rid of the UAW, no matter the cost.

The Democrats run Congress right now. They don't have enough votes to override a veto from President Bush, but Bush has not said he would veto a bailout.

The Democrats - whether you love them, hate them, or don't give a damn - are shooting themselves in the face with this. Unions are their biggest supporters. Refusing a bailout is going to alienate the UAW and every other union that sees itself at risk.

I don't necessarily think a bailout is a good idea. But I'm shocked the Democrats aren't even going to try.

[Uzzy]

Well the top guys didn't exactly address the whole situation properly. Flying on private jets, etc. I heard someone call into a radio program yesterday on my way home from work and he's in marketing (or used to be, I think he's not working right now...with the way things are in this area, that's no surprise ) but he was saying, (paraphrasing) "They flew in on their private jets, where is the Volt? Where is Chrysler's electric cars? The LA Autoshow? A lot of good they're doing there today. They should be parked on the front steps of Congress to show everyone what they are doing. Where is Ed Welburn? A well-spoken, successful black man is nowhere to be seen, yet (I forget the name of the auto exec -Uzzy) is front and center looking like rich white, fat-cat. Why would the southern states do anything to help these guys? Ed is the head of GM design, but he knows what is coming down the pipe-line, he can speak to the future product development. And there is Rick Wagoner who made 24million dollars salary this year. Why would congress want to trust these guys with more money if they don't even surround themselves with the kind of people to tell them that they should be acting like this? etc…

The guy ranted for a bit, and what I posted above is kinda like the jist of what he said and he was absolutely right. It's sickening to see the way they approached this whole endeavor.

If I were in Rick's shoes I would have foregone the salary for a while, and forced a few co-horts to follow in that gesture. I would have been riding up to Washington driving a Volt, with Ed Welburn riding shot-gun and Bob Lutz in the back seat shooting the finger to everyone driving a foreign car, the whole way down there! I would have gone in there humbly and thrown myself at their mercy. I would have said, “we tried doing a few things to turn things around, but we got sidetracked when the SUV market exploded. Sorry for trying to cash-in while we could, but it seemed like a good idea at the time. Then gas went way up, the market had a stroke and we got caught with our pants down and I apologize about that. But we have a plan on how to fix everything, we just need two things we don’t have, time and money. If you give us the money, I think we can buy the time. You should punish us, but in this case, it’s going to be bigger than just the 3 of us standing here.” Of course if I said that, I wouldn’t be Rick Wagoner…I’d be Lee Iacocca.


Where the hell is Mr. Iacocca in all of this? I want to hear from him.

[Ming]

Originally Posted by Uzzy

(paraphrasing) "They flew in on their private jets, where is the Volt? Where is Chrysler's electric cars? The LA Autoshow? A lot of good they're doing there today. They should be parked on the front steps of Congress to show everyone what they are doing. .

It would have been awesome if GM's entourage had gone to Washington in one of their Hybrid Buses....

[kpc655]

Originally Posted by Ming

No one fully "controls" anything until or unless they have an overwhelming filibuster-proof majority, and support from the current President. You can steer the direction all you want, and still get shot down easily.

True. So we can't lay the blame on the feet of the republicans or dem's, it's all of congress. And bush didnt even get a chance to veto it..so it's not really his fault either. Bush doesn't want this on his legacy...if he thought it would work and be good for the country he'd sign it in a minute. But of course congress never sent him anything to sign..so they don't have much faith either i think.

[wescoent]

Originally Posted by SimonDavid

Paulson has said he's not going to use TARP - he's a Wall St guy.

They'd need a few republicans to vote for it to get it through the "legacy" 50/50 Senate and somehow I don't see that happening. They were unimpressed by Wagoner's performance on the hill. I mean the CEO of a company on deaths door admits that he "is not that familiar with the ch 11 process" ? WTF?

The only assets that would bring in serious cash are China and Opel, which means effectively moving into liquidation mode.

That's what I mean when I say "going rogue"... if he has a change of heart.

Congress and the Senate have a simple problem with loaning GM the money. Wagoner gave them no reason to believe GM won't just burn through the cash, and be back in 6 months to beg for more.

[WildGMFan]

NOTE: This is not a left vs. right post. It is a government, or lack thereof post.

I wake up this morning and see that MN is sounding the alarm about melamine found in chinese made cookies http://www.startribune.com/business/34801019.html?elr=KArksLckD8EQDUoaEyqyP4OW3ckUiD 3aPc:_Yyc:aULPQL7PQLanchO7DiUr

What does this have to do with GM and the vote on the bailout for Detroit. It is the same congress and government who has allowed NAFTA to take over and lead up to what is happening now. More and more imported than what we export. And now we have cookies, toys, toothpaste, etc imported with melamine. I wouldn't be surprised that it is even found in the cars coming from there. This is what we as a country is left with.

While GM and Detroit has been doing everything possible to remain competitive. The government has been doing everything possible to destroy it. A free trade imbalance has only been a cover up. Remember, Bush wanted a trade agreement with Columbia in order to help the Big 3 or else?

As others have said, we are at war with ourselves. This bipartisanship, democrat vs. republican, left vs. right is killing this country. Instead of doing what is right for this country. They turn around and tell us to f!@# off with the highest tax rate for private business causing them to ship our jobs over seas.

If they wanted to help us. Why didn't the liberal congress do something about the speculators running up the gas prices. The economy was doing relatively well before they took over.

It doesn't matter. China is the new America. And everything going on, as the media reports it is meant to cause confusion. They are focused on the Big 3 CEO's flying down on a private jet. Yes, everything is going well according to them.

I will step off my rant box now...

[gmishistory]

Originally Posted by TechnoAura

Uzzy,

I just read this article about 20-minutes before your post. This is one of the TOP reasons why our country is in the shape it is today, bipartisanship . Our government is way too focused on Republican versus Democrat, conservative versus liberal, right versus left. They need to focus on doing what's best for this country instead of trying to prove the other side wrong and making the other side look bad because it adds to their already over inflated egos! As an educator, it's hard to teach my students to become more mature and more "adult-like" when most adults are bigger children and more immature than children.

I will step down from my soap box now.

the government is not in the business to bail out companies because they made bad business decisions. How do explane that Toyota and Honda while sales are down for them are able to weather the storm better then Detroit? Their are several foreign auto companies that make cars here in america. The 3 americans should just file chapter 11 bankruptcy. That does not mean that they are going to go out of business. It will help them to get rid of the UAW forever, next close plants in the north and sell them to foreigners from china, move gm ford chrysler to the south for the cheaper labor anCd no union. Next dump pensions onto the government, ban by constitutional admendments any and all unions. If the big 3 fail to exit chapter 11 and go into chapter 7 so be it. They will then live on as other companies like toyota will buy parts of them from a chapter 7 sale. Corvette could be the next Supra or Lexis IF. Chrysler Minivans could be bought by VW as they already have a version of it. Dodge Ram goes to Nissan as they are slated to get a version of the Ram. Jeep will live on maybe from China. Lincoln can be bought by BMW as an high end entry level division... Mercury can be sold to China or India. F-150 can be bought by VW to counter the Nissan Ram.

[texassierradude]

The Democrats are hoping that if GM does go down, it will be on W's watch. The Republicans are afraid if they go along with a "bailout" Obama will get all the credit for a revitalized domestic auto industry. They are indeed playing chicken, with literally millions of ordinary citizens existence hanging in the balance. And as for Sen. "Mercedes-Benz"....he also has Hyundai and Honda plants in his state. Is there any wonder for his attitude? Sen. Sessions of Alabama has also been making some asinine statements. I was hoping for more leadership from McConnell of Kentucky, as not only does he have Corvette assembly but the huge Ford Kentucky Truck Plant. But, he also has "Toy" in Georgetown. It indeed looks as if the fat lady is warming up....

[vam29]

Originally Posted by kenmi

Probably a power struggle between the outgoing and ingoing administrations and the two parties.

Exactly right! This is all political, not business. A last-ditch effort to fiinish off the unions (I'm not a big fan of the way they acted prior to 2005) and move business to Toyota and Honda in the Southern Red states during the Lame Duck period before the new President and Congress are inaugurated. They might succeed as there is no one efffectively pleading the bail-out loan case for the Big Three. All the public sees is the enormous "spin"on tv that the anti-union and foreign transplants are mounting through their political representatives to destroy northern manufacturing. It's incredibly naive to suppose that a new administration which ran on a platform of better jobs for all Americans and more environmentally friendly products will somehow abandon these promises or trade them for the enactment of the Columbia Trade Deal. Millions of American jobs will literally hang in the balance until Jan 20. Perhaps someone strong like Rahm Emanual can unofficially step in early before the ground is completely scorched and the middle class is gone because of these endeavors.

[GMCSonoma]

I assume then TMS & Honda, et al do not receive any subsidy from the Japanese government????

Originally Posted by gmishistory

the government is not in the business to bail out companies because they made bad business decisions. How do explane that Toyota and Honda while sales are down for them are able to weather the storm better then Detroit?

[texassierradude]

Originally Posted by gmishistory

the government is not in the business to bail out companies because they made bad business decisions. How do explane that Toyota and Honda while sales are down for them are able to weather the storm better then Detroit? Their are several foreign auto companies that make cars here in america. The 3 americans should just file chapter 11 bankruptcy. That does not mean that they are going to go out of business. It will help them to get rid of the UAW forever, next close plants in the north and sell them to foreigners from china, move gm ford chrysler to the south for the cheaper labor anCd no union. Next dump pensions onto the government, ban by constitutional admendments any and all unions. If the big 3 fail to exit chapter 11 and go into chapter 7 so be it. They will then live on as other companies like toyota will buy parts of them from a chapter 7 sale. Corvette could be the next Supra or Lexis IF. Chrysler Minivans could be bought by VW as they already have a version of it. Dodge Ram goes to Nissan as they are slated to get a version of the Ram. Jeep will live on maybe from China. Lincoln can be bought by BMW as an high end entry level division... Mercury can be sold to China or India. F-150 can be bought by VW to counter the Nissan Ram.

Maybe you could be taken more seriously if you learned how to spell. explane? anCd? what is that? admendments?

[steinravnik]

Originally Posted by 91Saturn

Let's face reality. Absent some sort of miracle, GM will be in Chapter 11 by the end of the year. I just hope that whatever new entity emerges from the wreckage will still be making the Camaro and some of my other favorite vehicles.

Ditto. I would still love to be able to buy a new Camaro, regardless of who's making it. I had a 2002 Z28, and it was my most favorite car ever.

[WildGMFan]

Originally Posted by steinravnik

Ditto. I would still love to be able to buy a new Camaro, regardless of who's making it. I had a 2002 Z28, and it was my most favorite car ever.

I just want to buy my Cadillac CTS-V, or even a CTS would do. I would still buy one even if they went to CH.11. F!@# china and their melamine.

[turbodiesel]

Originally Posted by LeSabre

^^ I dunno if the Fatlady started to sing. She might be getting ready to start warming up her vocal cords for singing. :/

Seems to me if Bush is really worried about his presidential legacy, maybe agreeing to bridge loans for the big 3 could help his already dented & tarnished presidency some, maybe alot. *shrugs*

Your "fat lady singing" anology reminds me of the opening scene of a certain episode of Ducktales... classic.

Well, I dunno how many days ppl can wait but I only know after January 20, 2009, the Democrat is forming the majority government for sure.

I am still watching closely on the news...

[kodos78]

The Democrats aren't stupid. They see there's no political capital for a bailout of GM. Heck, less that 50% of the public buys American cars anymore (that's a sad commentary, American cars have become pretty damn great in the last 5 years).

They want to preserve their political capital for the things they want to push in the next session of Congress. Now that they have complete power, they have to be careful to preserve it without ticking off the public for 2 years to maintain Congress in 2010.

They'll attach some government loans to the surviving automakers to throw the UAW a bone to some government stimulus program and Obama will sign it without much fanfare as it will be hidden on page 3,000 of some bill.

And like most constituents that do the heavy lifting for political parties, the Democrats are willing to throw the UAW under the bus. Who else are the UAW members going to vote for? Republicans? Ha!

And besides President-Elect Obama has quite the fund raising apparatus in place. This lessens the need for traditional donations from organizations like the UAW. I get almost daily emails asking to Donate to the DNC from them!

If you want to know what the resistance towards bailing out GM is, it's this:

People saw the Wall Street bailout (wrongly) as affecting them personally. The proponents of it framed it as: the collapse of the financial sector will prevent YOUR employer from being able to get a loan to pay for YOUR payroll. It will prevent YOU from being able to get a loan on your house. And it will escalate the housing crisis by making it impossible for people to buy YOUR neighbor's house, thereby crashing the housing market.

When people look at GM, they remember the resentment they had when their car sat in a dealership for 2 weeks, or when they were abandoned on the side of the road by their 70s era land yacht that got 10 mpg.

They also think of thuggish, spoiled union members and corporate executives that make millions for running a company into the ground for the last 30 years.

It's weird that I and my carpooling coworker are the only two people seemingly in our entire company that will buy American.

Sad.