Crossovers Disappoint Detroit

[zete]

The Enclave is an awesome vehicle. As my brother-in-law commented this past week as we went for a long trip -- 1200km round trip -- it was superbly smooth and handled wonderfully well. It was fully loaded up with passengers and they all felt comfortable and pampered. And it was so quiet in the cabin. He wanted to drive it so we let him and he couldn't believe how efficient it is on the highway. For our needs -- hauling family and family stuff around -- it's the perfect vehicle. And as the kids say, not a "loser cruiser" like a minivan.

It's a great vehicle for a family. And a crossover is nothing but a tall wagon, if we want to be fully honest about this.

BTW, at the price of the Enclave at the high end -- like mine -- it would have been good to have it come with a 2-mode.

[Hoosier Red]

Originally Posted by steverino

We have to buy cars (and lots of them) You can't break the chain of life.
jobs=earnings=consumption=jobs

So you are saying that we NEED to buy 17 million cars and trucks each and every year here in the United States? I highly doubt that. Most of us could make the choice to roll our current wheels another year or two with no significant effect on our life except for the fatter wallet. The number required to replace the units truly at the end of their useful life is significantly smaller.

[redimpss5]

They disappoint me also!! I want cars!

[paul8488]

Originally Posted by johnny smallblock

The Lambdas are fine for what they are - Tahoe alternatives.

Very good point! As large CUVs they are very good alternatives to the full-size SUVs... but they're still very large vehicles that don't get good fuel economy compared to cars and smaller CUVs. For people that want / need them they're excellent, but for people that are in SUVs that are too expensive, too large, and too thirsty at the gas pump, the lambdas (or any other large crossover) remain too expensive, too large, and too thirsty at the gas pump. Most people would be better off trading their Tahoe in on an Equinox, not on a Traverse, but as someone said, the current Equinox is dated and the new one isn't out yet.

[steverino]

Originally Posted by Hoosier Red

So you are saying that we NEED to buy 17 million cars and trucks each and every year here in the United States? I highly doubt that. Most of us could make the choice to roll our current wheels another year or two with no significant effect on our life except for the fatter wallet. The number required to replace the units truly at the end of their useful life is significantly smaller.

Actually, 19 million would be better, with a million of those sales going to GM

[steinravnik]

Originally Posted by boblutzfan

And Morgan Stanley did the right thing!!! I work in Commercial Lending and am very familiar with what is happening in the credit crisis. The fact that any person would use home equity to finance a depreciating asset like a vehicle is amazing. Banks should have cut off home equity lines years ago. Home equity lending along with the horrid sub prime mess allowed people to buy far too much stuff...and now like a drug addict stripped of his crack...the economy is going through withdrawal. American needs to start living on what they earn and remember that every American should plan to have a home that is paid for by the time they retire. Our economy needed a dose of reality and this housing/credit crisis is just that. It all needs to work through the system...I just hope people learn and start living and spending rationally instead of blaming the government or their local bank...

People won't blame themselves for this mess. They would rather blame the government, the lenders, etc. People expect to be bailed out. They shouldn't. They deserve to lose everything for being so stupid and irresponsible.

[boblutzfan]

You know...as I sit and watch GM really flounder with rumors of cancelling the highest selling Lambda - the Acadia, delaying the introduction of the Cruze (a desperately needed vehicle that will go on sale in other parts of the world before the US), delaying the Aura replacement, taking their sweet time getting six speeds in their vehicles and now canceling the RWD plans for Cadillac along with Buick and Chevy...I have to wonder what is going on over at GM with their senior management.

If all we had was rising gas - but no housing or banking crisis - the crossovers would be doing better than they are because people would foolishly continue to use their home as a piggy bank tapping their equity to buy cars they can't afford. But the reality is who needs a crossover? Fundamentally...families continue to get smaller and people use these big vehicles just to go to work. I see lots of Enclaves and Acadias here in San Antonio - more Enclaves than Acadias surprisingly enough - and I can count on one hand how many times I have seen a Lambda CUV with more than one person inside. American's have lost touch with reality and GM is right there building their financial future on these irrational vehicles. For once - I can say that Honda and Mazda have the best all around vehicle line up out there. Yes they have CUVs - but their core product is built around car (sedans). Four years ago I wanted a sedan that had both a V6 and a manual transmission combined with tight/sharp handling in a mid size package. Only Nissan and Honda had this combination (not counting the G35, CTS and 3 series which had this combo as they were much too expensive). So at the time I purchased a Mazda6S and have loved every mile. It has been very reliable, gets reasonable gas mileage, is comfortable and drives/handles great. In addition - it has nice soft touch materials for the dash and doors - you know, the stuff that GM doesn't even put in the current Aura or Malibu? I am not talking about low sheen plastics...I am talking about soft touch, low sheen...and this was four years ago. Fast forward to today. About 9 months ago when thinking about our new car purchase we were looking at minivans and CUVs - but now given the economy and fuel prices are back to looking for a second sedan. We will keep the Mazda6 but replace my older Nissan240 with another sedan. When I look at GM's current offerings - the Malibu and Aura...and compare it to the competion...they fall short. We are now looking again at the all new 2009 Mazda6S. For one - it offers the technology we need in the powertrain, offers dual zone automatic climate control, DVD based navigation, rear folding armrest, tight handling, and an overall better interior packaging and again, more soft touch interior materials than any GM offering.

So...why can't GM get a sedan out there that is that nice? Again, it looks like GM will lose me to Mazda. And like four years ago...I looked at GM first. I am tired of waiting for the future product that they keep promising. Some of my favorite cars in the world are GM products...the Corvette (all models!), CTS-V, STS-V, Enclave, Suburban, Denali, XLR, G8 and of course the new Camaro. Problem is that they all are not relavent to me - and I feel that I represent the typical buyer. I either can't afford the purchase price or don't want to be saddled with the fuel mileage that comes with them...or finally as is the case for the G8 - it has a horrid interior.

GM needs to get past the SUV/CUV addiction as soon as possible and put the effort into getting their small and midsize FWD sedans to the market as soon as possible. I fear that the current Accord and 2009 Mazda6 will be two of the best overall sedan packages on the market...and that the GM offerings (G6 - long in the tooth, Aura - great value proposition, Malibu - good effort) will continue to be good...but not great. GM cut too many corners with the EPI cars. Don't get me wrong, my dad purchased a 2008 Aura XE and I have driven it many times - it is a nice car for the money...I just wouldn't buy one. Hard plastic interior, door trim doesn't line up, no dual zone automatic, DVD Navigation or rear armrest...it isn't class leading in any way. The EPI sedans are better midsize sedans than GM has ever made...they just aren't best in class. I fear the EPII sedans will arrive and once again trail the competition leaving them as also rans.

GM has always poured money into gas/cash guzzlers (SUVS, Trucks and performance cars) that often are best in class. But for mainstream America - those vehicles just aren't relavent any more.

GM - are you listening?

[shorod]

What's wrong with the G8's interior?? Mine is very comfortable, and looks great in black and red trim. And I don't need or want a "nav" system. Learn to read a map.

[boblutzfan]

Originally Posted by shorod

What's wrong with the G8's interior?? Mine is very comfortable, and looks great in black and red trim. And I don't need or want a "nav" system. Learn to read a map.

That is fine if you don't want one. Like many other manufacturers...if you don't want one, you don't have to opt for one. Me...I want one and GM has seen fit to not allow me to opt for one. There are many buyers out there that want one and can't get one...so they look elsewhere.

And the G8 is lifeless looking and dark on the inside. I want something more organic and less charcoal.

[Tiny Elvis]

Originally Posted by boblutzfan

Fundamentally...families continue to get smaller and people use these big vehicles just to go to work. GM products...the Corvette (all models!), CTS-V, STS-V, Enclave, Suburban, Denali, XLR, G8 and of course the new Camaro. Problem is that they all are not relavent to me - and I feel that I represent the typical buyer. I either can't afford the purchase price or don't want to be saddled with the fuel mileage that comes with them...or finally as is the case for the G8 - it has a horrid interior.

GM needs to get past the SUV/CUV addiction as soon as possible and put the effort into getting their small and midsize FWD sedans to the market as soon as possible.

GM has always poured money into gas/cash guzzlers (SUVS, Trucks and performance cars) that often are best in class. But for mainstream America - those vehicles just aren't relavent any more.

You have made many excellent observations. First let me state that while you may see only one person driving that Enclave to work, rest assured that evening it is loaded with soccer teams and baseball teams going to and fro. Remember the size allows for carpooling which allows for less cars on the road which is a collectively good for America. Secondly, the Enclave is a first-rate highway cruiser that will take that family, all their gear and a decent camper if they want all over the USA. These types of vehicles are dual-purpose and fulfill their goals exceptionally well.

You mention a few GM products that are not relevant to you, but ignore literally dozens of GM models that may be up your alley. I would disagree that you represent a typical buyer, only because the automotive market is so segmented that I doubt the term "typical buyer" applies at it once used to. You may be a typical buyer in the mid-size sedan segment.

[camaro_freak]

Originally Posted by zete

The Enclave is an awesome vehicle. As my brother-in-law commented this past week as we went for a long trip -- 1200km round trip -- it was superbly smooth and handled wonderfully well. It was fully loaded up with passengers and they all felt comfortable and pampered. And it was so quiet in the cabin. He wanted to drive it so we let him and he couldn't believe how efficient it is on the highway. For our needs -- hauling family and family stuff around -- it's the perfect vehicle. And as the kids say, not a "loser cruiser" like a minivan.

It's a great vehicle for a family. And a crossover is nothing but a tall wagon, if we want to be fully honest about this.
BTW, at the price of the Enclave at the high end -- like mine -- it would have been good to have it come with a 2-mode.

except they get worse gas mileage and weigh hundreds of pounds more for very little gain... I'll take the wagon

[boblutzfan]

Originally Posted by Tiny Elvis

You have made many excellent observations. First let me state that while you may see only one person driving that Enclave to work, rest assured that evening it is loaded with soccer teams and baseball teams going to and fro. Remember the size allows for carpooling which allows for less cars on the road which is a collectively good for America. Secondly, the Enclave is a first-rate highway cruiser that will take that family, all their gear and a decent camper if they want all over the USA. These types of vehicles are dual-purpose and fulfill their goals exceptionally well.

You mention a few GM products that are not relevant to you, but ignore literally dozens of GM models that may be up your alley. I would disagree that you represent a typical buyer, only because the automotive market is so segmented that I doubt the term "typical buyer" applies at it once used to. You may be a typical buyer in the mid-size sedan segment.

You are idealist if you think all these crossovers are hauling soccer teams around on the weekends. I know too many DINKs that have CUVs because they are cool...and the most they carry around is just the two of them and their starbucks on the weekend.

And as far as me being a typical buyer? I would beg to differ. They typical buyer is flocking away from GM. So...I am closer to the typical buyer than the average GM customer....and that is with me being a huge fan of GM.

[vcs2600]

Originally Posted by boblutzfan

You are idealist if you think all these crossovers are hauling soccer teams around on the weekends. I know too many DINKs that have CUVs because they are cool...and the most they carry around is just the two of them and their starbucks on the weekend.

Also IMO people are going back to buying cars for the average use case rather than the exceptional one. People are realizing that there no need to drive around a giant C/SUV because they take 2 ski trips per year, shop for antiques now and then, or haul a soccer team once in a while. Its simply a waste when 80% of their miles are commuting to work.

[AMcA]

Originally Posted by JeffInDFW

I wish Chevrolet would do a Malibu Maxx on the new redesigned Malibu. I know a lot of people liked the package of the old Maxx, but the styling was soooooooo bland they could not get around that. Right now would be an awsome time to come out with it.

The Maxx was a great idea. ACtually very innovative, but they went and saddled it with the who-cares-what-a-car-looks-like? styling of the last Malibu.

If they still had a Maxx, it'd be sold out huge right now.

I bet it wouldn't be terribly expensive to develop a new one . . . they've already got the stretched chassis, and all the specialized parts were developed for the Maxx. So all they'd need now would be to engineer new exterior sheet metal (because I bet the structural bits from the last one could be easily adapted) for the hatch and hind end, and the needed interior bits. Not a big deal, guys. And you'd have something ideally suited for the current market.

[Tiny Elvis]

@boblutzfan

If you think you are a typical customer driven to the competition because you wanted a manual transmission in your V6 sedan, you are the idealist.

I do not know exact industry numbers but I would guess automatic transmissions FAR EXCEED the sales of manuals today. The "typical" driver wants an automatic. You sir, are atypical.

Finally, for you to take my comment and think I speak for "all CUV owners" is ludicrous.

Some of us live 90 seconds from work.

Oh, and by the way, lots of us don't live in urban or suburban areas.I know this may shock your manual-shifting senses but there isn't a Starbucks within 25 miles of us.