Crossovers Disappoint Detroit

[skylark68]

Originally Posted by 04bonnie

Go drive an Enclave, Acadia, or Outlook, and say that again. They have lots of power, 288 H.P. for 2009, and they don't feel like a huge truck, they ride like a car, and have the room of a mini van. They are the best thing around, right now, for families. Sure, the Enclave can get pricey with options, but if you keep it modest, like we did with our CX, then it stickers for around $35K, which is a good value when you see all that the vehicle has in it, including the safety features, the technology of back-up camera, and direct injection engine, etc. It's a vehicle that shouldn't lose a ton of value in a few years, because it's a vehicle everyone WANTS. But, to each their own. Hopefully the Enclave, and other Lambdas continue to be a hit for GM, and that will mean better resale value. For me, I intend on keeping my Enclave for 10+ years, so the trade-in issue really won't hurt me, it will be low anyway after that many years. As for fuel economy, the Enclave we have got about 23 MPG on a freeway trip up north last weekend, our first trip with it. It will remain to be seen what the mileage is around town, but we have a car too that we can use for all the short running trips.

I didn't realize that the HP was bumped up for '09. That sounds like an improvement. I just remember the reviews during the debut that discussed the vehicles feeling marginal powerwise.

23 MPG doesn't sound too bad for such a large vehicle, but driven reasonably a V-8 Tahoe can achieve close to that on the highway. I achieved close to 20 mpg on the highway in my old '89 Suburban on a trip to Indiana.

[sigma]

Originally Posted by skylark68

I didn't realize that the HP was bumped up for '09. That sounds like an improvement. I just remember the reviews during the debut that discussed the vehicles feeling marginal powerwise.

23 MPG doesn't sound too bad for such a large vehicle, but driven reasonably a V-8 Tahoe can achieve close to that on the highway. I achieved close to 20 mpg on the highway in my old '89 Suburban on a trip to Indiana.

Anyone want to do the math on a G8 Wagon with a V6 would get here? I'm guessing about 25-26mpg, especially if GM wises up and drops a 6T65 with a tall gear ratio for better fuel economy.

[Sgt Beavis]

Originally Posted by joshls

Why is the G8 Wagon not coming here again????

Man I wish they would bring it. I would love to have a G8 sedan but I really do need a wagon. A G8 Wagon would do the trick and I'd buy one tomorrow if it were on the lot.

However as Ming alluded to, a Malibu Maxx based on the current Malibu is VASTLY more desirable to me. That car would be four wheels worth of awesome.

[Tiny Elvis]

As an Enclave owner for nearly a full year, I think GM missed the marketing boat on my car.

First, it should be the new RoadMaster. It gobbles up concrete like a semi-trailer and slides you down the road like a pampered dictator.

Second, this car is a station wagon. No one buy these vehicles with any real off-roading intentions other than the crushed gravel/dirt road to the summer home or winter chalet.

Third, they need to tout the gas mileage numbers. The transmission seems on the soupy side when compared with other sporty offerings, but it's real-world gas mileage is head and shoulders better because of the shift logic. I can eke out 26mpgs here in Ohio if I drive like granny on the freeway. 26 MPG on the highway for a 5,000 pound car is something to be proud of, GM!

Forget all this CUV stuff. Let's see Tiger stuff his wife and new kid in his Enclave and head out for an adventure!

[AMERICA 123]

Originally Posted by KingElvis

I don't get the Enclave at all. It's nearly as heavy as a Tahoe and only gets moderately better mpg - all at the price of giving away <SOME> towing and off road ability.

No, - re read your specs again.

What's the point?

Make money selling automotive product that people want to buy.

It's like taking a poser vehicle and taking away all the exotic aspects of it until it loses its poser value.

- Yes, and your point is ???

Well really, if you don't seem to know the 'key' 'specifications' ( three rows - no MV ) and in comparison.......

Thankfully, others do - and even you 'can get' this part.

BUICK ENCLAVE.

....................................JUNE.......... ...................................YTD

Selling Days (S/D)......26.........24............................. ............26.......24

..............................2008.....2007....... .%CH........%DSR......2008......2007......%CH

Enclave..................3,894.....3,041....+28.0%....+18.2%....25,651....8,605.... +198.1%

***************************

Now go look at how many cars are performing below these numbers.

[Chaz_23]

Aztek - the original crossover!

Not sure how succesful some of the x-unders are that you mention. I guess in terms of German cars, if it starts without problem for a week, it's succesful.

Originally Posted by vcs2600

Not at all. Toyota/Lexus, BMW, VW/Porsche all had successful crossover SUVs out before the Big 3 had a clue. (For the sake of argument, let's just pretend the Aztek never happened )

It's the same old problem of GM being 3-5 years behind the curve. They were late to get into the SUV market, and late to get out. If the midsized Equinox, 9-4, and so on were here 3 years ago, it wouldn't be a big issue.

[TriShield]

Highway MPG ratings do not mean diddly to a huge chunk of the market out there.

Pretty much anyone who lives in a city is going to pay attention to City MPG ratings, and on GM's Lambda's the city consumption isn't pretty. Or it is, pretty grim.

My neighbor has an Acadia he drives around Phoenix and it returns a very low 14-16mpg consistently. It's a big gas hog. Slightly better than the Yuhoe but that's not saying much.

What GM needed wasn't crossovers or more king-sized vehicles. GM needed desirable cars from economy to midsize and they've seriously dropped the ball. All in the name of gourging at the SUV trough and riding the wheels off the bandwagon.

[63GrandSport001]

it bothers me that with so many different crossovers around GM has pretty much ignored them all and have focused on crossover SUVs.

[peterj2706]

Originally Posted by 04bonnie

Go drive an Enclave, Acadia, or Outlook, and say that again. They have lots of power, 288 H.P. for 2009, and they don't feel like a huge truck, they ride like a car, and have the room of a mini van. They are the best thing around, right now, for families. Sure, the Enclave can get pricey with options, but if you keep it modest, like we did with our CX, then it stickers for around $35K, which is a good value when you see all that the vehicle has in it, including the safety features, the technology of back-up camera, and direct injection engine, etc. It's a vehicle that shouldn't lose a ton of value in a few years, because it's a vehicle everyone WANTS. But, to each their own. Hopefully the Enclave, and other Lambdas continue to be a hit for GM, and that will mean better resale value. For me, I intend on keeping my Enclave for 10+ years, so the trade-in issue really won't hurt me, it will be low anyway after that many years. As for fuel economy, the Enclave we have got about 23 MPG on a freeway trip up north last weekend, our first trip with it. It will remain to be seen what the mileage is around town, but we have a car too that we can use for all the short running trips.

Toooo big. Larger than the Yukon I got rid of. And I liked the Yukon better. Was interested enough to wait on the Acadia before trading the Yukon, but the first time I drove the Acadia I knew it was too much vehicle and too much for the 6. Why does GM always think bigger is better, and then wonder what went wrong?

[mpsrent]

Originally Posted by TriShield

Highway MPG ratings do not mean diddly to a huge chunk of the market out there.

Pretty much anyone who lives in a city is going to pay attention to City MPG ratings, and on GM's Lambda's the city consumption isn't pretty. Or it is, pretty grim.

My neighbor has an Acadia he drives around Phoenix and it returns a very low 14-16mpg consistently. It's a big gas hog. Slightly better than the Yuhoe but that's not saying much.

What GM needed wasn't crossovers or more king-sized vehicles. GM needed desirable cars from economy to midsize and they've seriously dropped the ball. All in the name of gourging at the SUV trough and riding the wheels off the bandwagon.

That was my read on the Lambdas. While my driving is mostly highway, my wife drives are SUV and is almost entirely a city (large town) driver. When I looked at the Acadia I found that the city mileage isn't much better than my current Envoy. Given the fact that the Envoy has already depreciated heavily (okay...like a rock!) yet it is in excellent condition, it doesn't make sense for me to go and buy another SUV with marginally better fuel economy only to have it depreciate at the same rate.

I love it when people provide year over year comparisions of Lambda sale sighting them as a saviour for GM. Let's be fair, many Yukon, Tahoe, Silverado, Sierra, Envoy, Trailblazer, Suburban etc. owners are trading in their large SUV's and trucks for Lambda's. To get a true picture of the Lambda sales you need to compare them to the losses in these markets. As an Envoy owner I'm GM's target audience for a Lambda yet I have no interest in one and I am not alone. This is not good news for GM as SUV and truck owners seek a replacement to their current ride.

[johnny smallblock]

The Lambdas are fine for what they are - Tahoe alternatives.
The problem is, the Nox is in major need of a next gen model (I know its coming) - but that one is going to be even bigger. When will the crossover get here that slots under the next gen Nox??? (one that is probably a bit smaller then the present Nox)

I totally agree with the station wagon crowd. Impala wagons may have to be made too heavy with added torsion rigidity needed to make it up to modern expectations, but there's just no reason not to offer a Malibu and Cobalt wagon. Even an Aveo wagon, not just a hatch. They would add little expense and offer people a fuel efficient alternative to crossovers.

As an aside, GM has a fantastic turbo'd 4 banger making 260hp (anyone know the tq #s?). Why isn't that motor offered in everything south of the Impala??? Because people don't want 4 cylinders????? Do I need more exclamation points??????????

[04bonnie]

Originally Posted by peterj2706

Toooo big. Larger than the Yukon I got rid of. And I liked the Yukon better. Was interested enough to wait on the Acadia before trading the Yukon, but the first time I drove the Acadia I knew it was too much vehicle and too much for the 6. Why does GM always think bigger is better, and then wonder what went wrong?

The only thing I see larger on the Lambdas over the Tahoe and Yukon is the luggage space behind the third row, so that's not a bad thing. The vehicle itself can't be any larger than the Tahoe or Yukon, but what has happend is, GM has utilized all the space they can out of a very streamlined package. The Enclave and others are not huge on the outside, but the inside has ample room for 8 adults, even the third row is a comfortable place in the vehicle to ride for a while, wouldn't want to be back there for more than a couple hours at a time, but still, it's very usable for adults, not just children.

[steverino]

Originally Posted by Hoosier Red

Here's part of the problem that few people mention - most of us don't need to buy new cars. Period. In other words, even if I'm driving a petro pig, it's probably cheaper to keep driving it until the wheels fall off. Modern cars will last much longer than most of usually drive them. Yes, there's a shift to smaller cars when people need to buy something, but if people are making truly rational decisions, they are usually better off just continuing to drive their car for another few years through the bad economy. I don't know the exact numbers for the auto market the last few years, but we as a nation could probably lop off a few million of those auto purchases each year and not suffer greatly other than sacrificing that new car smell every couple years. I have a 2005 Ford Freestyle for a family of 5 (one on the way so soon to be 6). We've driven it cross country twice and we really can't go much smaller. I can afford to buy a Saturn Outlook - and really like them - but there's really no need to get rid of the 2005. That sour milk smell isn't as bad as the bite my wallet would take to get something shiny and new in this economy. The whole point? Besides the gas prices, I think we're finding that a lot of the car purchasing that was going on the last few years was very discretionary when mortgages were easy and everyone was awash in equity.

We have to buy cars (and lots of them) You can't break the chain of life.
jobs=earnings=consumption=jobs

[shorod]

Well, maybe some of us(like me!) just will never drive a small car, with a 4-cyl. I don't care how high gas goes(and by the way, in five years its going to be back down to about $2.50 a gallon), to me bigger is better. As the proud owner of a brand new 09 G8 GT, all I'll say is "from my cold dead hands will you pry my V-8 away from me!!".

[Drive571]

For those who don't need towing capacity, the Lambdas are certainly better people-carriers than the GMT900s. But car-based or not, V6 or not, Lambdas are still 5,000+ lbs., at which point you just can't get both good fuel economy and ~8 second 0-60 performance.

It's too bad really, GM released the excellent GMT900s just before that market began to tank, and now it's looking to be the same situation with the (also excellent) Lambdas.

Let's hope that GM's next swing for the fences won't be just one size down from the cash cows it's accustomed to--as was the case with the Lambdas--but all the way down at the small end of the market. Crossing fingers for a top-notch Cruze and Corsa...