Crossovers Disappoint Detroit

[Jesda]

Originally Posted by Chaz_23

This shouldn't be a surprise. No one wanted x-overs, no one was asking for them.

The Big 3 decided out of nowhere that America would just switch from minivans, mid-size SUVs and sedans into x-overs because...who knows. They always were and continue to be clueless. It's just another series of big thirsty cars that no one wants.

24mpg for an eight-passenger superwagon is hardly an issue of "thirst" when a V6 sedan gets about the same.

The issue is that people can't afford to transition to them because their SUVs aren't worth anything on trade.

[Ming]

Originally Posted by Jesda

Apples to oranges, and a silly comparison to make.

Your Suzuki is a poor example of what Americans should be moving to. A better example would be a Mini Clubman, or some fun-to-drive wagon variant of a small car. Think of the Ford Flex, but perhaps smaller with a turbo-four.

People want as much car as they can afford. People want as much of everything as they can afford. If you spend 10 minutes in an econ class, you'll understand the concept of scarcity. Many are suffering in this economy, but I'm not, so why would I bother getting into an underpowered shoebox if I don't have to?

If GM, BMW, Honda, or Ford offered an attractive box on wheels that was good on gas, I'd consider it. The Scion XB, for the record, is not attractive. Nissan should bring the Cube to the US.

Wagons the past. Spacious microvans are the future.

I took econ and marketing classes. Maybe you need the marketing class, too?

A lot of your other points I agree with, but my Coupe/Convertible comment I was thinking more of a car like the Pontiac Sunfire convertible/coupe, not some purpose-built convertible. That's a "silly" comparison. I did say a "similar" platform. A Kappa platform is hardly similar.

Now, maybe we can have the best of both worlds with that Kappa-based Nomad type of car (without the awful retro looks).

I guess you buy in to the Affluenza thing (or think many Americans do, and not sure I can disagree there), but I don't - at least not anymore.

There's a couple that lives down the road from me in an unassuming house, with a pair of old Jeeps. They're millionaires living comfortably, but you'd never know it because they don't feel the need to advertise it or live within the upper boundary of their means, or worse, going in to debt.

I might not follow thier lead exactly, but I aspire to that lifestyle, not the one of excess put on display by Rap stars and celebrities.

I'm not going as extreme as the "debt free" types, but I think that's another way to enjoy life --- not having the worry that if you lose your job you won't have a safety net because you spend too much on house and car payments. I've seen that happen to many friends and coworkers.

I can keep my job skills marketable, but the trend in my industry towards outsourcing is undeniable. I've outlasted many layoffs, but I'm not so overconfident that it will be easy sailing forever.

Also, I might want to move to Japan someday again. I don't want a lot of STUFF I can't easily get rid of tying me down. Like an SUV that costs me $40,000 and I owe more on that it's worth.

Friends use to poke fun at my (bought new) Metro back when I landed a nice job in the late 90's. It's just the way I like to roll. Gives me a sense of security to know I'm living in a way that doens't put me on the edge, or paycheck to paycheck.

What sheeple decide to do for the sake of showing off their wealth is no concern of mine. I come from a family that has been upper middle class for some generations, so I just don't understand the appeal of the "New Rich" lifestyle with their bling-bling, look I got the newest car/cell phone/fad item mentality.

[Masospaghetti]

Good thing that GM is "ready to make small, fuel efficient engines when the public is ready"! And good thing that there's plenty more crossovers in the pipeline!

[Ming]

Originally Posted by Jesda

24mpg for an eight-passenger superwagon is hardly an issue of "thirst" when a V6 sedan gets about the same.

The issue is that people can't afford to transition to them because their SUVs aren't worth anything on trade.

Who really gets 24MPG in daily driving (not that one trip to Arkansas with a tail-wind) with an Acadia anyway?

[skylark68]

I've never understood the appeal of crossovers. I'd rather have a nice sized station wagon that is low to the ground and drives like a car should. I'd much prefer a G8 wagon to an Acadia, Enclave, etc. FWD and a marginally powered V-6 in a large massive body just doesn't make much sense to me.

[EldoFan]

Originally Posted by skylark68

I've never understood the appeal of crossovers. I'd rather have a nice sized station wagon that is low to the ground and drives like a car should. I'd much prefer a G8 wagon to an Acadia, Enclave, etc. FWD and a marginally powered V-6 in a large massive body just doesn't make much sense to me.

Same here

[Evo69]

Why is this a surprise? Even if oil prices were lower the hit the economy took with the sub prime crisis and over supply of US dollar denominations would have slowed things down dramatically. I myself foresaw major slowdown in the US economy before oil prices became an issue, which is why I lauded GM for not overproducing their newest offerings because I knew the crap was going to fly. What caught me by surprise though (and nearly everybody else) was the brutal and unwarranted threefold rise in the price of oil which has exacerbated the problems with the economy, and made GM's woes even more difficult, it has also caused many jokers here at GMI to start cussing off GM like some ignorant viragos.

Now crossovers were in the works for a good while and were released to the buying public when the development time was finished, no use slagging off GM because they made crossovers instead of wagons. What I think GM is doing now is prioritizing smaller vehicles that gives better fuel economy, they should start to totally scale down truck and SUV production to reflect lower demand and start pushing like fiends their smaller cars especially those that gets good mileage to the point of annoyance. GM will have to ride out this storm, its going to be a while before things picks up. The onus is upon GM to positively respond to this nasty multi fold situation with well made economic vehicles that people will buy.

[04bonnie]

Originally Posted by skylark68

I've never understood the appeal of crossovers. I'd rather have a nice sized station wagon that is low to the ground and drives like a car should. I'd much prefer a G8 wagon to an Acadia, Enclave, etc. FWD and a marginally powered V-6 in a large massive body just doesn't make much sense to me.

Go drive an Enclave, Acadia, or Outlook, and say that again. They have lots of power, 288 H.P. for 2009, and they don't feel like a huge truck, they ride like a car, and have the room of a mini van. They are the best thing around, right now, for families. Sure, the Enclave can get pricey with options, but if you keep it modest, like we did with our CX, then it stickers for around $35K, which is a good value when you see all that the vehicle has in it, including the safety features, the technology of back-up camera, and direct injection engine, etc. It's a vehicle that shouldn't lose a ton of value in a few years, because it's a vehicle everyone WANTS. But, to each their own. Hopefully the Enclave, and other Lambdas continue to be a hit for GM, and that will mean better resale value. For me, I intend on keeping my Enclave for 10+ years, so the trade-in issue really won't hurt me, it will be low anyway after that many years. As for fuel economy, the Enclave we have got about 23 MPG on a freeway trip up north last weekend, our first trip with it. It will remain to be seen what the mileage is around town, but we have a car too that we can use for all the short running trips.

[mpsrent]

Originally Posted by Ming

If GM had brought the MINI to the U.S., it would have an interior no more exciting than a Cobalt's, a bigger engine than needed "for American tastes", and they'd try to keep it under the price point of the next larger class of car at a brand -- instead of letting it just BE a MINI and attract people willing to pay more for style and features, regardless of the size of the package.

This is a brilliant observation that say's it all. While other manufacturers can import global cars as they are developed for the rest of the world, GM North America feels compelled to modify cars "for American tastes" which usually translates in sales flops.

While the Lambdas are currently popular as people who need a large SUV style vehicle replace their current rides, the market will reach a saturation point and you can bet that the honeymoon period with crossovers will be far shorter than that shared by large SUV's. Even for former SUV owners, a lot of buyers really don't need the space, power or towing capacity of a Lambda. Give them something that can tow their small boat or tent trailer while offering them the car like ride, size and fuel economy that they really want.

[Whitesky]

Originally Posted by skylark68

I've never understood the appeal of crossovers. I'd rather have a nice sized station wagon that is low to the ground and drives like a car should. I'd much prefer a G8 wagon to an Acadia, Enclave, etc. FWD and a marginally powered V-6 in a large massive body just doesn't make much sense to me.

Because station wagon=minivan=soccermom=lame-mundane.

[boblutzfan]

Originally Posted by steinravnik

People just got more money taken away that could have been used to buy crossovers:

Morgan Stanley Said to Freeze Home-Equity Credit Withdrawals
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...gzI&refer=home

And Morgan Stanley did the right thing!!! I work in Commercial Lending and am very familiar with what is happening in the credit crisis. The fact that any person would use home equity to finance a depreciating asset like a vehicle is amazing. Banks should have cut off home equity lines years ago. Home equity lending along with the horrid sub prime mess allowed people to buy far too much stuff...and now like a drug addict stripped of his crack...the economy is going through withdrawal. American needs to start living on what they earn and remember that every American should plan to have a home that is paid for by the time they retire. Our economy needed a dose of reality and this housing/credit crisis is just that. It all needs to work through the system...I just hope people learn and start living and spending rationally instead of blaming the government or their local bank...

[vcs2600]

Originally Posted by Chaz_23

This shouldn't be a surprise. No one wanted x-overs, no one was asking for them.

The Big 3 decided out of nowhere that America would just switch from minivans, mid-size SUVs and sedans into x-overs because...who knows. They always were and continue to be clueless. It's just another series of big thirsty cars that no one wants.

Not at all. Toyota/Lexus, BMW, VW/Porsche all had successful crossover SUVs out before the Big 3 had a clue. (For the sake of argument, let's just pretend the Aztek never happened )

It's the same old problem of GM being 3-5 years behind the curve. They were late to get into the SUV market, and late to get out. If the midsized Equinox, 9-4, and so on were here 3 years ago, it wouldn't be a big issue.

[motorman]

buyers don't want their neighbors to think they are driving one of those dreaded SUVs and not doing their part for global warming. same thing during the last gas crunch people with money bought those terrible caddy diesels when the cost to fill the tank and MPG was not a problem to them

[mcool]

The market as a whole is suffering... crossovers aren't unique, but they're an easy target for their size and recent popularity. Only super-efficient and well-branded-as-such cars are thriving right now.

Off topic, but I am really lamenting GM's decision not to import the G8 sportwagon... just tested another G8 GT the other day and the sportwagon would be my next car, hands down!

[Jesda]

The moral of the story here:
Congrats on the "smart" buy, but your car is not much fun, and there's hardly any reason why anyone who likes cars should ever buy one. I enjoy driving, I fix cars, and I go through owning a half dozen a year sometimes, and can afford to make it my primary hobby.

But I would not wish your purchase on anyone but those in need of basic practical transit. It might be great for a mom who needs some seats and a storage area, but its God-awful to anyone who likes to smile while they do their motoring -- a penalty box for the frugal.

Originally Posted by Ming

What sheeple decide to do for the sake of showing off their wealth is no concern of mine. I come from a family that has been upper middle class for some generations, so I just don't understand the appeal of the "New Rich" lifestyle with their bling-bling, look I got the newest car/cell phone/fad item mentality.