Cadillac XTS and Buick Regal Confirmed!

[fp115]

Originally Posted by 2002 Caddy

Cadillac isn't dead... but it is dying and is on life support. Sadly I don't see anyone at GM rushing in with the paddles to try and save the patient.

Lets review:

• The division has only one car that sells.
• The latest car from the division is a sport wagon that will be lucky to sell 400 units a month
• The latest CUV from the division is a down grade from the last and now competes against "near luxury" CUV's... what I would call "Buick" space.
• The latest car, the XTS (which is a goofy and meaningless name that, walks... *cough*..RUNS away from any and all history and heritage) and like the latest CUV is a down grade from the car it replaces and competes against the "entry level" FWD Lexus... nice target there...
• As Billy Mays would say... But wait there is more... The replacement for the Northstar is Dead... no new V8 in the works... How can you have a premium brand with no premium V8?
• XLR dead... How can you have a premium brand with no premium Roadster?
• DTS/DT7/STS replacement DEAD... How can you have a premium brand with no premium sedan?

No Cadillac is not dead... But the division has never been in worse shape in my opinion.

The only bright spot is the premium plug in that might come a year or two after the launch of the Volt.

It won't be till 2011 or so that the lineup is fully restored... which is a pity. But at least we have some vehicles to want in the meantime.

Also, what about the Escalade? That is still a demanded vehicle.

[LeSabre]

^^I say it'd be much longer than 2011 before Cadillac's line up is restored.

2011 is just 18months away. Thinking it'll be restored by then is wishful thinking.

Perhaps by 2014/2015 it would/will be though not properly restored.



!!

[CUtiger08]

Originally Posted by vcs2600

Here's my reasoning:
* 10 years ago, Buick was playing ball down with Chevy and Pontiac with badge-jobby models. Zero luxury cred.

* The LaCrosse and Lucerne were attempts to move Buick upscale and they mostly flopped. How upscale can they go in a single product cycle?

If Hyundai can go from joke brand to selling the $30-40k Genesis in 10 years... Buick can too. They already have the quality part down, all they need now is the "wow" product that's priced above the "mass market" models.

Originally Posted by vcs2600

* Just because the government rubber-stamped Buick's business case doesn't mean it's viable in the long term. Either Buick gets a few winners, or they are DEAD the next model cycle. Cadillac+Chevrolet is the ideal, if Buick is to survive, they need to perform right now.

This I can agree with... I just think that winners mean something a little more VW/Acura-ish than Kia/Toyota-ish. And a question: does perform mean profits (where higher price is good) or sales volume (where it probably isn't)?

Originally Posted by vcs2600

* GM still needs to compete in the premium car segment. They need an answer to Taurus, 300, Avalon, Maxima, Passat and so on. Buick is a much better fit for this role, both traditionally, and in terms of their current image, than they are in the luxury market.

There are two VERY different groups of cars you just mentioned, one of which is the truly fullsize (195-205 in long) mainstream/premium cars your vision of Buick competes with and that IMO should primarily be the Impala's job, and the other (Maxima & Passat) is the premium midsizers that my idea of Buick does compete with.

The Maxima and Passat are almost the exact same size as the Insignia/Regal (~108 in wb, ~190 in long) but cost even more ($30k base Maxima, $28k base Passat) than the $27k base priced Lacrosse, which is much larger at 112in wb and 197 in long.

If the Regal started at $28k to match the Passat, and therefore the Lacrosse started at around $32k, Buick would be positioned exactly where I want them to be: priced to fight both the premium mainstream cars that you mention while also inviting comparisons (which I think they would win) to the 30-40k FWD Lexus/Acura sedans. Instead they will be priced against Toyota (and therefore Chevy) models at $27k and probably about $22k, and will probably not sell that much more while making less money per car.

Originally Posted by vcs2600

* Selling any number of Epsilon2 cars in the $25-35K range is money in the bank for a bankrupt corporation. Buick can do this.

Anyway, now people are harping on a "two-prong luxury strategy". But GM doesn't have a two-prong strategy! They have never positioned Buick as a Lexus competitor, that's purely GM forum talk. Buick is still very clearly a classical domestic "mid-level" brand.

Furthermore, after GM failed to reposition Oldsmobile, Saturn, and Pontiac, they need to be a little gun-shy. Keeping Buick in it's traditional image/role and moving them slightly upscale is a conservative strategy that GM could very likely execute. Now they just need some less sucky advertisements.

Can/could and should are two different things. And I think that's our biggest differnce... I want Buick to be the best it can be, you seem to want it to keep doing what GM knows it can do... or at least what they are currently trying to do. And obviously GM hasn't properly placed Buick to fight Lexus... that's my whole point!!

I do agree about the ads though, they are not a good start to any Buick strategy. Thier products are better than ever, it would be nice if the adds could match them in quality.

Originally Posted by tbirderic

As things stand now, Cadillacs main problem is not so much GM's lack of resources, it is that Cadillac has very little brand equity to spare Every subsequent product that Cadillac introduces needs to be dead on target. They can't afford even to be a little off, as with the new SRX for example.

EXACTLY... "good" doesn't cut it anymore... Cadillac (and GM in general) needs to be great or they won't succed.

[vcs2600]

Originally Posted by CUtiger08

If Hyundai can go from joke brand to selling the $30-40k Genesis in 10 years... Buick can too. They already have the quality part down, all they need now is the "wow" product that's priced above the "mass market" models.

I'm not sure if Buick could. Hyundai made a major investment in a new platform and a new V8 engine. If GM were to spend that kind of money, they would invest it in Cadillac. The whole business case for Buick appears to be that GM can do it on the cheap with international models. If GM management felt they had to spend a lot of money on Buick, I think it would be in the same place as Pontiac right now.

Moving Buick up $10K in price and positioning it as real luxury brand would be a complete hail mary. GM hasn't done this because it's obviously insane even to them. Let's see if the LaCrosse can hold the $27K price point first, because even that's iffy.

There are two VERY different groups of cars you just mentioned, one of which is the truly fullsize (195-205 in long) mainstream/premium cars your vision of Buick competes with and that IMO should primarily be the Impala's job, and the other (Maxima & Passat) is the premium midsizers that my idea of Buick does compete with.

Yes, I conflated a couple size classes, but I wouldn't draw such a bright line through it. They are all still larger sedans in roughly the same price range marketed under non-luxury brands. (And looking at your spreadsheet, you're right that cars in this category don't sell particularlly well. Actually worse than the more expensive luxury cars in many cases.)

And the fact is there isn't a new Impala, Chevy simply doesn't compete in this space. This is a positive move because, for once, GM isn't building overlapping "clone" products. (For example a $25K Impala versus a $27K LaCrosse.) Buick is actually moving into a unique position with GM's hierarchy.

[CUtiger08]

Originally Posted by vcs2600

I'm not sure if Buick could. Hyundai made a major investment in a new platform and a new V8 engine. If GM were to spend that kind of money, they would invest it in Cadillac. The whole business case for Buick appears to be that GM can do it on the cheap with international models. If GM management felt they had to spend a lot of money on Buick, I think it would be in the same place as Pontiac right now.

That's just it... I think Buick is already getting and/or can easily provide the needed product on the cheap by with international models...a Skylark/Renedezvous/Regal/Lacrosse/Enclave/Park Avenue lineup would be a solid lineup, requiring very little investment in terms of product... I just don't think they should be sold on the cheap.

Originally Posted by vcs2600

Moving Buick up $10K in price and positioning it as real luxury brand would be a complete hail mary. GM hasn't done this because it's obviously insane even to them. Let's see if the LaCrosse can hold the $27K price point first, because even that's iffy.

I've never said a $10k jump... that would put them at or even above their Acura/Lexus equivlents and would definately be too bold a move. But a $5k jump to split the difference between Toyota/Honda and Lexus/Acura (and in the process hit VW dead on) would be worth it IMO. And even if they completely don't take, GM would still have at least $5k in incentives/price reductions to play with before the cars stop being profitable, assuming the $27k Lacrosse is profitable.

Originally Posted by vcs2600

Yes, I conflated a couple size classes, but I wouldn't draw such a bright line through it. They are all still larger sedans in roughly the same price range marketed under non-luxury brands. (And looking at your spreadsheet, you're right that cars in this category don't sell particularlly well. Actually worse than the more expensive luxury cars in many cases.)

Yeah, all the lines are kinda blurry in the $25-40k sedan market depending on what your priorities are. Some sell on size, some on features, some on peformence, some on brand image, and then there are various combinations of these traits. In some ways I think how you define as the sub-groups in this class go a long way in determining what cars GM's brands should have, and which brands should have them.

Originally Posted by vcs2600

And the fact is there isn't a new Impala, Chevy simply doesn't compete in this space. This is a positive move because, for once, GM isn't building overlapping "clone" products. (For example a $25K Impala versus a $27K LaCrosse.) Buick is actually moving into a unique position with GM's hierarchy.

The fact that GM is making a mistake with one brand (not selling a cheaper/softener G8 as an Impala) does not excuse a mistake in another brand's positioning. I will admit that, given the total set of mistakes GM is making in all 3 car brands, a workable lineup does result (though I'd like to know where the Regal and "Skylark" can fit relative to Chevy if the Lacrosse is priced where the Impala should be).

I just look at what GM could do, mostly with little to no extra cost in terms of products/platforms, and see something far better than the same old, or in some cases worse than before, GM that we are apparently getting.

To go back to the "hail mary" analogy you used earlier, I think GM is in a position where they need to make big plays to get back in the game. Maybe not a full hail mary, but certainly some down the field passes and maybe some trick plays (secret VOLTEC models). 3 yards and a cloud of dust (playing conservative with the lineups) just isn't going to cut it IMO... but then I might just be wrong. Honestly, GM (and fans of GM) better hope so, because they are definately following the more conservative plan so far.

[TriShield]

More fail car plans from the fail car company.

XTS? Cadillac's names are nearly as alien and unbearable as Lincoln's. It's absurd.

The Regal and LaCrosse will cannabalize the crap out of each other in addition to Cadillac (and vice versa).

All thes "new" GM plans look just like the mistakes that sunk GM in the first place and demonstrate that nothing has really changed.

[fp115]

Originally Posted by LeSabre

^^I say it'd be much longer than 2011 before Cadillac's line up is restored.

2011 is just 18months away. Thinking it'll be restored by then is wishful thinking.

Perhaps by 2014/2015 it would/will be though not properly restored.



!!

So? They have redesigns and new models on the way that will be out by 2011. Enough to have an entire lineup like it had in 2000.

[vcs2600]

Originally Posted by CUtiger08

The fact that GM is making a mistake with one brand (not selling a cheaper/softener G8 as an Impala) does not excuse a mistake in another brand's positioning. I will admit that, given the total set of mistakes GM is making in all 3 car brands, a workable lineup does result (though I'd like to know where the Regal and "Skylark" can fit relative to Chevy if the Lacrosse is priced where the Impala should be).

One quick point. Ford moved the Taurus nameplate from a sub-$20K rentalmobile to a sub-$30K premium sedan, but as of yet, there's no evidence this strategy has worked. Furthermore, Mercury is even more "damaged" than Buick. That is, having a viable mid-level brand to set apart the premium product could be an advantage for GM that Ford does not have, assuming they market it correctly. So, I don't believe it's automatically true that GM should ape Ford or Toyota and create an premium Chevy sedan.

I would love to see the G8 come back as a Chevy, but IMO it should be positioned as a niche market sport sedan, NOT a replacement for the existing Impala.

Honestly, GM (and fans of GM) better hope so, because they are definately following the more conservative plan so far.

I would agree. However, keep in mind that GM has history of gambling big money to reposition brands and coming up with nothing. Being conservative with the government's capital investment isn't necessarily the worst idea.

[Dr. Show-Me]

To use a baseball analogy, GM is down 4 runs in the bottom of the 8th inning. They need to have a series of hits, not a single home run. Without the hits and scoring runs, they'll stay behind and lose.
Is the XTS a home run? I doubt it, but if it is a solid hit that makes money, followed by more hits, GM can score big profits in the shorter term. Home runs are hits too, so a home run or two would add up as well.
I think the new LaCrosse will be a solid double.

[CUtiger08]

Originally Posted by vcs2600

One quick point. Ford moved the Taurus nameplate from a sub-$20K rentalmobile to a sub-$30K premium sedan, but as of yet, there's no evidence this strategy has worked.

Two quick points: Ford kept one of their big/cheap fleet-cars (the Crown Vic and family) so in a way they've hedged their bets, and IMO there is evidence that their strategy in general is working: rising market share (and no bankruptcy, though that's more financial than product based) even in a bad market, including a quickly rising Ford Fusion. The Taurus as a single car's success or failure does remain to be seen with the new model, though it has managed plenty of critical acclaim so far.

Originally Posted by vcs2600

Furthermore, Mercury is even more "damaged" than Buick. That is, having a viable mid-level brand to set apart the premium product could be an advantage for GM that Ford does not have, assuming they market it correctly. So, I don't believe it's automatically true that GM should ape Ford or Toyota and create an premium Chevy sedan.

I would love to see the G8 come back as a Chevy, but IMO it should be positioned as a niche market sport sedan, NOT a replacement for the existing Impala.

I agree that having a mid-level brand is a huge advantage, and that's exactly why I think Buick needs to move up and become a mid-level brand, and not just a second mainstream brand selling mid-level products for less than they are worth. Notice that I've never had a problem with what cars Buick is getting, just their price.

And I think having the Impala becoming more of a niche vehicle, though still selling at Maxima/Charger sales levels, would be good for GM and specifically the Malibu, which would likely end up far closer to the Camry in sales without a second FWD upper-midsized sedan within its own brand. Also, I would not be opposed to the current Impala sticking around as a "fleet queen" Chevy Classic for as long as needed.

Originally Posted by vcs2600

I would agree. However, keep in mind that GM has history of gambling big money to reposition brands and coming up with nothing. Being conservative with the government's capital investment isn't necessarily the worst idea.

While that may be true, most of my ideas (besides the near-universaly agreed with desire for the Alpha platform for a 3-series fighter and next gen midsized RWD cars) would not require spending much, if any, money. Certainly not any more money than building a decent... ie notably different than its Buick/Chevy siblings... FWD XTS for Cadillac would cost.

[AMERICA 123]

Originally Posted by PistonsFan

You guys are getting awfully worked up over what appears to be a lot of speculation.

- and very likely inaccurate

Originally Posted by gagt02

Fwd only on the A8 is an option in europe, but not in the US

Originally Posted by ahaelson

There is a FWD version for sale in Europe, with a 2.8L V6 engine. FWD models were also available with the previous generation A8. Every other model is AWD though.

So you could call that a AWD platform with FWD option But in seriousness, most Audis have always traditionally been FWD.

If you go add up all D3 platform Audi / VW sales, FWD is the much larger majority.

Furthermore as others have pointed out, its a type of FWD layout.

The engine assembly is 98 / 100% forward of the front axle line.

Originally Posted by ehaase

I seriously doubt that the XTS will be anything more than Cadillac's competitor for the Lincoln MKS and the cheaper versions will be priced just above the most expensive versions of the LaCrosse. This car will be nothing like the Audi A8. I would guess it will use the 3.6L V6 with the premium version being a hybrid.

Originally Posted by megeebee

Lexus does have 2 FWD vehicles. The ES and the RX (which share a platform). But these 2 vehicles account for over 70% percent of all Lexus sales. The RX alone accounts for about half. All those RWD vehicles available and people buy the FWD ones. Hmmmmm.

Originally Posted by megeebee

Agreed on all points. (Many here seem to feel that unless Cadillac becomes an American BMW overnight then it shouldn't exist at all.)

The Asians especially are famous (infamous) for this. Look at Acura and its "Hondas-In-Drag" line up.( Yet, they enjoy a very high retained value over time.) Lexus also to an extent; though the LS and IS lines are things unto themselves.

And to that point it should be noted that the Sigma platform is still exclusive to Cadillac. A majority of Cadillac product will, once the DTS dies and the CTS Coupe and Wagon ramp-up, be built on it. These vehicles are built in only one, Cadillac exclusive factory. Lansing-Grand River.

Imagine a vehicle that targets a more well rounded and appealing ES 350 but that will also have more appeal for other types of buyers

Originally Posted by mgescuro

THey don't. But I think it's because they realize the true cost of completely overhauling Cadillac. My estimates are $10-12B for Cadillac alone.

Not even close -

That is about what you need extra just for Marketing - for the first five to seven years and only in regards to the USA.

You could very easily spend more for that marketing for good effect .

In fact, if you want to go real hard, a billion per year per product would be the practical upper limit - but still with no guarantee.

In today's dollars for a global effort you'd need an extra effort above what is currently present that would average out at the minimum 4.5 -5 billion a year - for 15 - 25 years - assuming all things went well all the time.


***********.

Originally Posted by vcs2600

Actually, I disagree, there's a ton of positive news in this article no matter what one thinks about the Lexus ES.

Converj - Delta2 Voltec
XTS - FWD Epsilon2 ES fighter
Small RWD Cadillac - Alpha BMW 3-series fighter
New CTS - Sigma more-upscale BMW 5-series fighter
New 'STS' - Sigma large traditional Cadillac (LS-powered)
Escalade - Lambda based crossover

Looks like a pretty comprehensive line-up to me, and a great improvement over what's currently being sold. (IMO it's a bigger mistake to move Escalade off GMT900 than too sell an ES-fighter.)

Exactly.

And on the first pass, its the definition of the mix of targets that matters most - and this one is real good - regardless of platform assignments and perhaps at least a nod in the direction of the DTS and its competitors

you can not hit the target if you do not know what you are aiming for.

People don't get it.

Everything has changed for all of the brands going forward ie the whole industry.

For Cadillac......... .

They are "here", and its a long tough journey to get "there" ie to the summit.

Before they can make that final climb, they got to go down the trail and get to the base of the mountain.

Worse yet, they have to generate their own logistics along the way.

All that we are hearing really makes sense in order to get started on all that.

Ironically, a great deal of the negativity here is very similar in nature to the worst of the old GM meaning many years back.

Totally and rather arrogantly miss estimates the task.

Either that or its a case of too many Star Trek reruns - with Picard's " - number one, make it so " still ringing in their ears

No Cadillac is not dead... But the division has never been in worse shape in my opinion.

In some ways this is true - like current market share.

However,

Overall, when looking realistically towards the future nope, late '70s thru mid eighties - by far.

'Cadillac' briefly dropped to literally a two man operation in terms of dedicated Cadillac only employment.

Other than the market share thing - and the recent trip to court , everything was worse in that period especially in terms of future potentials.


********

A two pronged assault by Buick and Cadillac which uses the template of a more tightly focused and redefined Lexus Division - which notice, is most definitely a bifurcated effort - although I prefer to think of it as a three or four element grouping - is a very practical and smart way to go.

GM's powertrain programs represent a real advantage for Cadillac as long as German sourced diesels can be limited which appears likely to continue.

[AMERICA 123]

Well, quite accidentally, I stumbled into some stuff old and new so....

1. ) The new A8 / "D4" family which is expected to release around mid 2010, will change its low end gasser PT's from 2.8 / 3.2 FSI V6s to..........a 2.4L I4 and a 3.0L V6.

One of the weight ranges mentioned works out to approximately 3650 - 4150 counting both the A8 at the minimum and the A8L all maxed out.

The D4 architecture's main contributor appears to be the current A4 although the D3 figures into it as well and there was the previous relationship to consider -.

2. ) As announced by Daimler in OCT 2008, the S klasse is still on track to receive some applications of the truly phenomenal new 2.143L I4 diesel that they have been rolling out of late.


So......what may be be happening in a sense, is that the XTS is covering an ES 350------DTS fwd bandwidth.

One thing for sure, the large premium and super premium car offerings in place by no later than 2015 are in many specifications going to unrecognizable from today's.

With that in mind, its great to see Cadillac will not be left behind nor will they be the last one in.but instead will be in the early 1/2.

[cad1cts]

I have reservations about GM's ability to do a capable large luxury sedan on a FWD platform. Given that they're making NA a top priority, I don't think it will end up being what it should be. Asia, Russia, and the Middle East have great wealth and high expectations in luxury vehicles. If the new XTS is sold in those markets and is considered a viable and worthy competitor for the established makes, then I will hang my hat and say it’s successful. I don't see that happening.