Cadillac XTS and Buick Regal Confirmed!

[tbirderic]

Originally Posted by megeebee

What "standard" are you referring to?

Is RWD the sole basis for this "standard"?

Can you name an Asian Luxury brand that offers anything like the V series? Any other American brands offer this?

The CTS range is the centerpiece of Cadillac. By this time next year, if all goes right with GM, there will be 5 CTS models (All of them RWD/AWD!). Sedan, Wagon, Coupe, and 2 V-series variants. Are you prepared to assert the CTS is not "credible"?

Even when this new sedan arrives, Cadillac will have 2 FWD/AWD models counting the SRX. All others RWD/AWD.

Where's the shame in that?

I don't think RWD is the sole basis for a luxury vehicle. But Audi aside, pretty much all large luxury cars that are sold globally are RWD based. There has to be a reason for that.

There is an Asian luxury brand that offers 'something like the V-series.' It's called Lexus, and the car is the IS-F. Don't know if it's a very good performance sedan; I have no interest in driving one, but it is a viable alternative to a CTS-V, or a C63 AMG.

While we're on the topic of the V-series, isn't it dead, or at least on haitus? The only V-series that will be available after this year is the CTS.

Third point. Why are you excited that the CTS is "the centerpiece of Cadillac?" That's synonomous with saying that the C series is the centerpiece of M-B, or the 3 series is the centerpiece of BMW. All three are volume cars, not flagships.

Originally Posted by megeebee

Thank you Doctor! Cadillac needs a mid-range sedan to appeal to the broad range of people that like large, luxurious sedans and don't give an ounce of cat-poop which set of wheels is doing the work. FWD is, in many areas of the country, preferred to RWD because of its traction in winter weather. AWD in a RWD car is a good compensation but this adds cost, complexity, weight, and
higher fuel consumption.

No one hopes for a large, RWD sedan for Cadillac to run with the big-boys more than I do. But the existence of a FWD sedan in the line up is not the end of the world. All the European names that field cars like the S and the 7 also have large line-ups of smaller less expensive cars that sell in large numbers all over the globe. Cadillac does not have this presence.( I wish it had, but it doesn't.) It would be the height of folly for GM to spend billions to develop it's own S class in return for annual sales that probably wouldn't top the 10K mark. The S itself didn't do that well in this country last year.

Yes, you're right, Cadillac needs a mid-range luxury sedan. But in the long-term the lack of a flagship is going to cost them more. The only luxury brands that really come to mind that don't have S-class worthy flagships are Lincoln and Acura. How many people dream half their life of owning an RL or MKS?

Getting back to the RWD/FWD argument, you rightly mention that Cadillac would have both with the addition of this XTS. But how many brands realistically have 'both?' Audi is mostly quattro. Lincoln and Acura are all FWD based. Everything else, is RWD based. The only brand that has 'both' is Lexus.

I for one do not think that Cadillac should aspire to beat Lexus. The Lexus of today is what Cadilac was in 1985. It's the luxury car people who don't know the first thing about luxury buy.

As others have pointed out, most of Lexus's sales are derived from the two Camry-based models; the RX and ES. Unfortunately, as frustrating as it may be, Lexus can get away with offering mediocrity. The Lexus dealership experience is first-rate, and Toyota products, rightly or wrongly still enjoy a reputation for reliability. These are attributes Cadillac can not hope to immediately match.

That means the only way Cadillac can compete is with product, and the product has to be competitive with everything else that's out there. Will the XTS be cometitive with a 5 series, or an Audi A6? It's too early to tell. However, the XTS needs to be a lot more than an alternative to the MKS in order to be a success for Cadillac.

[Sal Collaziano]

Originally Posted by tbirderic

I for one do not think that Cadillac should aspire to beat Lexus. The Lexus of today is what Cadilac was in 1985.

This is exactly the way I feel. Cadillac went downhill and Lexus came right in and scooped up all their customers... These customers liked soft, cushy rides with lots of technology - and Lexus became a top-tier luxury brand based on exactly what Cadillac used to be the "Standard of the World" of...

[nferr]

Originally Posted by Xenon

Apparently FWD and big luxury don't mix. Have you ever seen an FWD luxury car be successful in it's class, especially at the pricepoint that it's slated to be in ($50K)? While its obvious that the car won't get any sporty, will it have the tech to sell? Will the car be well received? Either way, I'd highly doubt that the car will even be anywhere near as good as the Park Avenue.

The FWD STS of the 90's was very successful in it's class. And it was a very expensive vehicle for it's time when introduced in 1992. It was priced in the 40's and that was 17 years ago. Sales fell apart in 2005 when the STS went RWD.

That's why I think a FWD based Cadillac if done correctly could be very successful even now.

[nferr]

Originally Posted by tbirderic

I don't think RWD is the sole basis for a luxury vehicle. But Audi aside, pretty much all large luxury cars that are sold globally are RWD based. There has to be a reason for that.

There is an Asian luxury brand that offers 'something like the V-series.' It's called Lexus, and the car is the IS-F. Don't know if it's a very good performance sedan; I have no interest in driving one, but it is a viable alternative to a CTS-V, or a C63 AMG.

While we're on the topic of the V-series, isn't it dead, or at least on haitus? The only V-series that will be available after this year is the CTS.

Third point. Why are you excited that the CTS is "the centerpiece of Cadillac?" That's synonomous with saying that the C series is the centerpiece of M-B, or the 3 series is the centerpiece of BMW. All three are volume cars, not flagships.



Yes, you're right, Cadillac needs a mid-range luxury sedan. But in the long-term the lack of a flagship is going to cost them more. The only luxury brands that really come to mind that don't have S-class worthy flagships are Lincoln and Acura. How many people dream half their life of owning an RL or MKS?

Getting back to the RWD/FWD argument, you rightly mention that Cadillac would have both with the addition of this XTS. But how many brands realistically have 'both?' Audi is mostly quattro. Lincoln and Acura are all FWD based. Everything else, is RWD based. The only brand that has 'both' is Lexus.

I for one do not think that Cadillac should aspire to beat Lexus. The Lexus of today is what Cadilac was in 1985. It's the luxury car people who don't know the first thing about luxury buy.

As others have pointed out, most of Lexus's sales are derived from the two Camry-based models; the RX and ES. Unfortunately, as frustrating as it may be, Lexus can get away with offering mediocrity. The Lexus dealership experience is first-rate, and Toyota products, rightly or wrongly still enjoy a reputation for reliability. These are attributes Cadillac can not hope to immediately match.

That means the only way Cadillac can compete is with product, and the product has to be competitive with everything else that's out there. Will the XTS be cometitive with a 5 series, or an Audi A6? It's too early to tell. However, the XTS needs to be a lot more than an alternative to the MKS in order to be a success for Cadillac.

No offense. But you drive a Hyundai and you're making statements like "people who buy Lexus are luxury car people who don't know the first thing about luxury car buy". And you say anyone who bought a Caddy in the 80's is the same thing. Give me a break. I've driven Lexuses and their fine cars. Quiet, smooth, quick, decent handling, top notch interior materials and reliability. Excellent resale values and dealer service and treatment. Yeah but people buy them because they don't understand luxury cars. Right.

[Xenon]

Originally Posted by megeebee

What "standard" are you referring to?

Is RWD the sole basis for this "standard"?

Can you name an Asian Luxury brand that offers anything like the V series? Any other American brands offer this?

The CTS range is the centerpiece of Cadillac. By this time next year, if all goes right with GM, there will be 5 CTS models (All of them RWD/AWD!). Sedan, Wagon, Coupe, and 2 V-series variants. Are you prepared to assert the CTS is not "credible"?

Even when this new sedan arrives, Cadillac will have 2 FWD/AWD models counting the SRX. All others RWD/AWD.

Where's the shame in that?

.

I was referring loosely to the "Standard of the World" mantra that Cadillac used to chirp about.

I never said that the CTS isn't a good car, but it can't be the only world-class car in the lineup. And while brands like Lexus may not have anything like a V series, they most certainly have a more complete lineup than what Cadillac has now. Really can any brand be successful with only one car?

[Xenon]

Originally Posted by nferr

The FWD STS of the 90's was very successful in it's class. And it was a very expensive vehicle for it's time when introduced in 1992. It was priced in the 40's and that was 17 years ago. Sales fell apart in 2005 when the STS went RWD.

That's why I think a FWD based Cadillac if done correctly could be very successful even now.

Judging by the past efforts at Cadillac, I'd wouldn't hold my breath on this "XTS" as being a successful car. Most of those STS buyers back then are probably well rooted into Lex, BMW and Merc cars by now.

[johnstarnes]

Originally Posted by Xenon

Judging by the past efforts at Cadillac, I'd wouldn't hold my breath on this "XTS" as being a successful car. Most of those STS buyers back then are probably well rooted into Lex, BMW and Merc cars by now.

Why was the STS so poorly received?

[Sal Collaziano]

Originally Posted by johnstarnes

Why was the STS so poorly received?

Because it was just a boring, slightly larger version of the CTS.

[MAK]

Originally Posted by fp115

There is a pretty significant announcement on the Impala for changes in a much nearer future

Yo FP, still waiting on answer for this. When is this announcement gonna be made, and better yet, what is this announcement gonna be? Thanks.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Originally Posted by nsap

As for "half-assed," do you consider Zeta or Sigma "half-assed" platforms? I would say not...

No.

BUT, I doo take issue with the amount of time it took both platforms to make it to market. Sigma debuted in, what, 2002? Then we finally get Zeta 6 years later.

If GM continues to drag its feet like that, then there is no use in competing in this market in the first place.

I'm all for Cadillac having what it really needs to compete. However, I AM NOT in favor of them getting it at the expense/delay of other, more important divisions (Chevrolet is the only one that's left)

[Dr. Show-Me]

All the engineering work being done on Pontiac, Saturn, Hummer and Saab is no longer being done by GM engineers. They can now be focussed on just the remaining brands.

[tbirderic]

Originally Posted by nferr

The FWD STS of the 90's was very successful in it's class. And it was a very expensive vehicle for it's time when introduced in 1992. It was priced in the 40's and that was 17 years ago. Sales fell apart in 2005 when the STS went RWD.

That's why I think a FWD based Cadillac if done correctly could be very successful even now.

It sold well because it was a technologically advanced vehicle in a stunningly beautiful package. But than and now, 300hp is about the limit for a front-driver's abilities.

The current STS didn't sell because it was similarly sized to the CTS, and looked markedly similar. Had nothing to do with RWD. AWD has been avialable from the beginning.

Originally Posted by nferr

No offense. But you drive a Hyundai and you're making statements like "people who buy Lexus are luxury car people who don't know the first thing about luxury car buy". And you say anyone who bought a Caddy in the 80's is the same thing. Give me a break. I've driven Lexuses and their fine cars. Quiet, smooth, quick, decent handling, top notch interior materials and reliability. Excellent resale values and dealer service and treatment. Yeah but people buy them because they don't understand luxury cars. Right.

My personal choice of vehicle is immaterial to the discussion. It's a transportation appliance, and hardly a class leading one. That said, it's not a bad car for the price that Hyundai is charging.

Look, just because I don't drive a luxury car does not mean I don't understand the philosophical concept of luxury. I've been in enough luxury cars to discern the difference between a fine vehicle and one that is merely aspiring to be one.

I know that it's been beat into the ground, but I very much agree with mgescuro and wesconet, that luxury is a lifestyle, an ethos. Just as there's a difference between a fine watch, and one that only looks luxury, luxury clothing and cheap knock offs, there's also a difference between true high end cars and those that are only look the part. Just because I don't own luxury items does not mean that I can't appreciate them for what they are. Much the same way that I don't need to be a published author to comment on literature, or an artist to critique a painting.

That said, although I appreciate finely crafted items, I am not, and don't think I'll ever be, a luxury buyer. Some of that is due to to money, or lack thereof, most of it is simply due to how I view the world. Luxury to me is about indulging oneself regardless of cost. Luxury purchase are emotional purchases, not rational purchases. And deep down I'm a rationalist. Hence the Hyundai. If I ever do find myself behind the wheel of a luxury car, it will be one just off a lease. But that's a big 'if.'

But getting back to the discussion, Lexus is not top notch luxury. Yes they have a top notch dealership experience, and excellent reliabiility. No one disputes that fact. However, even if you take the RX and ES out of the equation, many of their higher level cars cut corners and use generic Toyota parts. Just as Cadillac did for years and to a lesser extent, continues to do so today. Yes these are little items, but they are noticeable, and it is one of the factors that separates Lexus from the heavy hitters.

And I'm sure I'm not the only one who notices these items. Lexus's inability to break the European market is to some extent attributable to this.

So I stand by my statement. Upwardly mobile people buy Lexuses today because it is the most prevalent luxury brand in America. Just as Cadillac was the preminent luxury car brand 25 years ago. That does not mean that the cars they sell are the best luxury cars available in a given price range, or that their customers are able to discern the difference.

You probably don't agree with my statements,concerning luxury but I've long been enamored by the factors that make the luxury car buyer tick. In addition, it was also something I had to understand. As a former salesman, I can readily attest to the fact that you can't sell an item precieved as a luxury good, unless you know what makes the luxury buyer tick.

P.S. Were the Cadillacs of 1985 really great luxury cars? If not, than why did they sell so well?

[mgescuro]

Originally Posted by tbirderic

P.S. Were the Cadillacs of 1985 really great luxury cars? If not, than why did they sell so well?

No. They weren't "really great" luxury cars. But Cadillac's image and prestige were still pretty much intact in the mid-1980's. And they sold on the image of what Cadillacs were.

Luxury is a lifestyle. Cadillac catered to that lifestyle... at least back in 1985.

[aldw]

I do have to concur with Tbirderic's points, Benz is essentially what Packard was supposed to be in the old days, and Lexus does what Caddy used to do in the 1980's luxury wise, so Cadillac really needs strong, consistent product focus and execution (preferably on RWD) to be a worthwhile luxury vehicle (plus better customer service to boot).

[MonaroSS]

Originally Posted by tbirderic

I don't think RWD is the sole basis for a luxury vehicle. But Audi aside, pretty much all large luxury cars that are sold globally are RWD based. There has to be a reason for that.

Originally Posted by FUTURE_OF_GM

I take issue with the amount of time it took both platforms to make it to market. Sigma debuted in, what, 2002? Then we finally get Zeta 6 years later.

I'm one who equates luxury with RWD. I've argued to Lutz that to appease the US unions they should make a Buick version alongside Camaro and send it to China in exchange for the Chinese Park Avenue. This would get more use out of Zeta's RWD and add to Buick's luxury image.