Business Magazine Suggests GM Should Close 5 Of Its 8 U.S. Brands

[Buickman]

Originally Posted by SierraGS

How do you know that some of us do not run multi-national companies with billions in sales with double digit growth rates in revenue and net income and are more than qualified to run GM?

There have been some very well thought out plans posted on this topic from GMI members for GM to consider and if you read them that is all they intend to do - present a solution, obviously we do not have all of the facts that GM mangament has and as with any proposal some give and take are required when weighed against budget and time realities, then get through the corporate politics that exists in any large company.

GM refuses to listen regardless of one's credentials. it's almost as if they purposely drove the business down in order to supplant production to other countries and drive down the costs of what facilities do remain on US soil. look at the loss of market share over the years and it's like descending a flight of stairs. stupidity is not that sequential.

Return to Greatness was endorsed by minority shareholders as well as very knowledgable folks from academia, analysts, media, suppliers, mid-level GM executives, and dealers. Red Ink Rick went so far as to prevent distribution of the plan at the Hotel duPont, having security threaten to remove me from the premises for attempting to share information. any surprise I called for his resignation?

[t-rex]

Originally Posted by Buickman

GM refuses to listen regardless of one's credentials. it's almost as if they purposely drove the business down in order to supplant production to other countries and drive down the costs of what facilities do remain on US soil. look at the loss of market share over the years and it's like descending a flight of stairs. stupidity is not that sequential.

Return to Greatness was endorsed by minority shareholders as well as very knowledgable folks from academia, analysts, media, suppliers, mid-level GM executives, and dealers. Red Ink Rick went so far as to prevent distribution of the plan at the Hotel duPont, having security threaten to remove me from the premises for attempting to share information. any surprise I called for his resignation?

"Security"...

More proof positive of just what absolute p*****s Americans have become. Wagoner isn't even man enough to face scrutiny.

Originally Posted by MrJamesMc

I don't think people should suggest to GM what they should do in such detail by making lists out of the brands and what "image" they should shoot for. If you have the professional title and right to do so, please go right ahead, but if not then GM won't listen to you.

There's very little anyone has suggested on this board that any competent car company wouldn't likely do. Seems the only car companies on the precipice of non-existence are ones run by American Ivy League MBA's.

Even embattered Mitsubishi, facing a decade-long decline in quality and reputation, and Fiat, for an entire century run by scatterbrains, are slowly inching back to recovery. Meanwhile, GM can't sell cars to its own people, Ford's had to bet the farm to survive, and Chrysler's fate is anyone's guess.

It's an utter embarrassment to this country that the Chinese, who five years ago couldn't even copy someone else's design worth a ****, are coming out with stylish, distinctive new products that aren't that far off from their Western counterparts. All Geely, Chery, and Brilliance need are an infusion of quality and they'll be serious contenders.

Ford's troubles are the result of past management incompetence. Chrysler's the poor orphan of an erstwhile hostile takeover. I refuse to believe that GM's management has let the company's domestic market share slide so precipitously sheerly by accident. It doesn't take a soothsayer to see there's clearly some nefarious sleight of hand being undertaken by Wagoner and his lackeys. And in typical gutless "Dubya" dicatator fashion, he simply has removed anyone who dare call him out for his incompetence.

If the U.A.W. had a lick of sense, they'd strike to have Wagoner and his henchmen removed, since he poses the greatest threat to job security. I know you hopeless GM fans truly in your little naïve little hearts believe the Malibu and Volt are going to save GM. Think again...

***

[gardnet1]

[quote=SierraGS;1400153]If GM kills GMC I would NEVER buy a Chevy or ANY GM product again - EVER.

First off it is not an Eight Brand issue it is a Twelve Brand one on a Global basis and is the way GM must address this problem – too much time has been wasted trying to “perfect” brand pairings for the U.S. market when the U.S. market is weak and distorts the global picture.
Chevrolet
GMDAT
Buick
GMC
Holden
Opel
Pontiac
Saturn
Vauxhall
Hummer
Cadillac
SAAB
Second this Twelve Brand issue must be reduced to a Four “Channel” one.
(“Channel” is my word for it, but I just another way to say “brand pair” or “division pair” feel free to use your own).
Chevrolet-GMDAT
Buick-GMC
Holden-Opel-Pontiac-Saturn-Vauxhall-Hummer
Cadillac-SAAB
quote]

The easy part is already done as Vauxhall and Opel are one brand containing identical products (except for LH-RH drive differences) with two names Opel for the continentals and Vauxhall for the UK/Ireland.

By the way, did you ever notice that all the RH drive vehicles are only sold in Island countries?

[gardnet1]

Originally Posted by luvapontiac

There is NOTHING wrong with Pontiac cars. The only thing wrong with Pontiac itself is the new market they are trying to go after. Sorry GM, the BMW wine and cheese crowd is not going to consider Pontiac over BMW (which I am glad for). Get back to your roots of Pontiac performance cars (i.e Firebird would be great...G8 is a good start and the Solstice is awesome) Why not build a performance hybrid? Give us muscle, give us performance, and you can even give us some very fuel efficient cars to get the "green" people in the showroom as well!

Pontiac has too much pride and tradition to be killed while Saturn and Saab live on. Long live the Chief!!

I don't think Pontiac is going after BMW. I think Pontiac is going after the car buyer who can't afford a BMW and lothes the snobby, better than you yuppie driving it. This is a chance to match up to that snob with something you can afford and cause his jaw to drop while his trophy girl looks on and says, "It's ok honey, it happens to everyone"

[gardnet1]

Originally Posted by fm442scr

This guy is INSANE! Kill SAAB?!? Saab is a viable international brand. They might not be selling 3 million cars a year here, but part of Saab's appeal is that it is a semi-niche vehicle that not everyone has. As far as the other brands, Pontiac and Hummer could go, but the other brands, I think, can be or already are being rejuvenated successfully.

Jaguar and Land Rover are also viable international brands but like Saab, they are hemoraging money and their product lineup is old in the tooth (except for XF). Like Jag and L-R, it has been decades since Saab was truly profitable. Ford was wise to part ways with the English brands. Either move production to a 3rd world country, sell it or can it.

Sooner or later GM has to cut the Saab imbilical cord.

[CJ Thunder]

Originally Posted by Buickman

when is the last time a GM executive was fired for failure? trick question...answer is never (at least in modern times). Lovejoy heads GMAC when McNamara burns us for $400 million, he gets transfered to SPO. the Fiat fiasco cost us billions and no one is held accountable. marketshare nosedives, shareholder value disappears, long term debt skyrockets, Olds is lost, GMAC is sold, Buick is starving to death, plants closed, assets sold, divisions spun ...and once again...zero accountability. this is the single biggest trouble at GM. in particular, the marketing staff is comprised of incompetent failures who are never called to task for their inabilities.

again I state "Return to Greatness" is the answer. 5 Points of share within 6 months or my name isn't Buickman.

Exactly, business problems.


Saying oh wow they have too many brands, while might have some bearing in reality, is WAY over simplifying the problem.

[t-rex]

Originally Posted by gardnet1

By the way, did you ever notice that all the RH drive vehicles are only sold in Island countries?

Well in Europe at least!

India, Pakistan, Malaysia, Thailand, South Africa, Angola, Kenya, Tanzania are all RHD countries.

I too wonder why SierraGS worries so much about the existence of separate Opel and Vauxhall brands. It's for all intents and purposes one brand, just with those going to the UK wearing Vauxhall badges.

In theory, you could brand your products by dozens of different names at only a nominal cost. Vauxhall and Holden are entrenched names in their respective markets, and getting rid of them could potentially be disastrous for GM. Selling Opels as Vauxhalls in the UK costs GM nothing more than the cost of the "Vauxhall" emblem, and maybe office letterhead, and helps keep market share up through use of an established brand name.





BTW, Opels are Opels in Ireland, not Vauxhalls!

[paul8488]

Could GM properly manage all of their brands? Yes, if only they'd manage their brands properly. In the same light, Britney could be a good mother if only she'd be a good mother. All things are possible, but some aren't likely. GM hasn't managed their brands properly for decades... why will they get it right tomorrow? I know that tgagneguam for one has said many times that all of GMs brands are an asset (and he puts forth very good arguments), not a liability, but that's only if they're managed right. Since they're not managed right, they're liabilities.

[Buickman]

If the U.A.W. had a lick of sense, they'd strike to have Wagoner and his henchmen removed, since he poses the greatest threat to job security. I know you hopeless GM fans truly in your little naïve little hearts believe the Malibu and Volt are going to save GM. Think again...

***[/quote]

Red Ink Rick gave Solidarity House Billions in VEBA funding to manage, enabling the UAW to reap hundreds of millions in administrative fees. Gettlefinger & Co take in far more from their relationship with GM management than they do from union dues. any surprise American production facilities are falling like dominos? Reuther warned of the day when union leaders earned substantially more than the common man.

in this light one can understand the backing of Red Ink Rick by the Board of Bystanders. why else would they allow such a decline in our business year after year? my theory is that these are intelligent (tho corrupt) individuals who know exactly what they are doing.

[AMERICA 123]

Originally Posted by EatonISgay

There should only be one brand! Cadihevropontiuckurnmmeraabmc. : )



Bottomline is you could make a case either way. As soon as GM dumped 3 brands the chinese would come in with 5 of their own.

GM lost market share because it didn't build what we wanted, thats why you saw hyundai, kia, scion, lexus, infiniti, mini, etc. come in. All new brands.

Who cares if there owned by different companies or sold under one umbrella - GM? GM, build stuff we want and nobody would be having this conversation. Build it before someone else does.

Going forward from whatever point in time you want to pick , if GM had been reduced to 3 Divisions in NA the path would've been different - but the destination would've been the same.

And however you want to apportion responsibility for GM's performance from the '50s - '60s 'till now - consolidating channels while retaining brands still outpoints other choices - in NA moving forward from here.

Essentially, - as Mr. Lutz and many others here have pointed out .............

" - its the car stupid "

[SierraGS]

Originally Posted by t-rex

Well in Europe at least!

India, Pakistan, Malaysia, Thailand, South Africa, Angola, Kenya, Tanzania are all RHD countries.

I too wonder why SierraGS worries so much about the existence of separate Opel and Vauxhall brands. It's for all intents and purposes one brand, just with those going to the UK wearing Vauxhall badges.

In theory, you could brand your products by dozens of different names at only a nominal cost. Vauxhall and Holden are entrenched names in their respective markets, and getting rid of them could potentially be disastrous for GM. Selling Opels as Vauxhalls in the UK costs GM nothing more than the cost of the "Vauxhall" emblem, and maybe office letterhead, and helps keep market share up through use of an established brand name.

BTW, Opels are Opels in Ireland, not Vauxhalls!

You are correct that it is a minor cost to sell Vauxhall's in the UK opposed to Opels and GM avoids buyer backlash in a strong market for GM.

My reason for holding Opel and Vauxhall/Holden separate other than they are strong brands in their home markets is that I think GM should sell and manufacture Vauxhall's in India and make Vauxhall the mid-level brand there. Vauxhall is a RHD brand that is going to be established as mid-level along with Opel in Europe so it is logical to expand this to the India, Pakistan, Malaysia, Thailand markets and since the old Opel models seem to do better than the GMDAT ones in Australia they will be sold as Holdens in Australia/New Zealand.

This plan would be duplicated in South Africa, Angola, Kenya, Tanzania using either the Holden or Vauxhall name.

I am also toying with the idea of selling a expanded line (from just the VXR) of RWD Vauxhalls with (LHD) in Europe along side Opels similar to what should be Pontiac/Saturn dealers here.

With a expanded Hummer line of smaller more "Jeep" focused models, Hummer would be sold along with Vauxhall in Vauxhall/Hummer dealers and GM can re-enter the Japanese market with Holden/Hummer and since GM will never get a large part of the Japanese market it should focus on Holden/Hummer and Saab/Cadillac only to maximize margins.

Note that all of these markets (except Australia/New Zealand and Japan) will have Chevrolet under Holden/Vauxhall and Saab/Cadillac above them.

One last point I would not even limit names to Holden or Vauxhall in these new RHD markets, if Buick, Daewoo, Pontiac, GMC or Saturn "click" better with the market then use them. As you say there is not much cost involved in marketing a separate brand for a entire country and what many has missed here is GM has to have a marketing campaign focused on each of these markets anyway so use the Brands and Model names that work best.

[Strapping.Young.Lad]

Originally Posted by Lunden

How is the Outlook a rebadged Chevy?

The Traverse is a Rebadged Outlook to be corrrect.

[t-rex]

Originally Posted by FordRules

The Traverse is a Rebadged Outlook to be corrrect.

Sorry if I come across splitting hairs but...

It's only a "rebadge" if it shares the same body; I mean identical sheetmetal pressings welded together with only a plastic badge and grille swop to distinguish one from the other.

The Milan and Mariner are rebadges of the Fusion and Escape, respectively. The GMC Savana is a rebadge of the Express, and so on.

Traverse and Outlook each have unique bodywork — granted they look virtually the same — much like the Trailblazer and Envoy only share roof pressing and tailgate, with all other body parts unique.

Traverse and Outlook, much like Trailblazer and Envoy, are more of a case of bad overlap than of "rebadge". But since they're all but identical in execution, it's really no different than if they were outright rebadges.

I don't see the Outlook lasting for much longer.

[t-rex]

Originally Posted by SierraGS

You are correct that it is a minor cost to sell Vauxhall's in the UK opposed to Opels and GM avoids buyer backlash in a strong market for GM.

My reason for holding Opel and Vauxhall/Holden separate other than they are strong brands in their home markets is that I think GM should sell and manufacture Vauxhall's in India and make Vauxhall the mid-level brand there. Vauxhall is a RHD brand that is going to be established as mid-level along with Opel in Europe so it is logical to expand this to the India, Pakistan, Malaysia, Thailand markets and since the old Opel models seem to do better than the GMDAT ones in Australia they will be sold as Holdens in Australia/New Zealand.

This plan would be duplicated in South Africa, Angola, Kenya, Tanzania using either the Holden or Vauxhall name.

I am also toying with the idea of selling a expanded line (from just the VXR) of RWD Vauxhalls with (LHD) in Europe along side Opels similar to what should be Pontiac/Saturn dealers here.

With a expanded Hummer line of smaller more "Jeep" focused models, Hummer would be sold along with Vauxhall in Vauxhall/Hummer dealers and GM can re-enter the Japanese market with Holden/Hummer and since GM will never get a large part of the Japanese market it should focus on Holden/Hummer and Saab/Cadillac only to maximize margins.

Note that all of these markets (except Australia/New Zealand and Japan) will have Chevrolet under Holden/Vauxhall and Saab/Cadillac above them.

One last point I would not even limit names to Holden or Vauxhall in these new RHD markets, if Buick, Daewoo, Pontiac, GMC or Saturn "click" better with the market then use them. As you say there is not much cost involved in marketing a separate brand for a entire country and what many has missed here is GM has to have a marketing campaign focused on each of these markets anyway so use the Brands and Model names that work best.

With all due respect, SierraGS, I don't think you've spent much time in Britain's former colonies!

Vauxhall haven't been sold in India in decades, which may be to its advantage, but I doubt it'd be an instantly recognisable name to them.

I'm not sure how Aussies view Vauxhall, but the brand hasn't been represented there since the 1960s. Maybe some Aussies can shed light on what 'Vauxhall' means to them.

In New Zealand, where the brand lasted until around 1980ish, it's a very stodgy name and the situation is exacerbated by the last crop of models suffering from dreadful reliability issues.

Reviving Vauxhall in South Africa would be disastrous. While the "big six" Velox and Cresta enjoyed popularity in the 1960s, Afrikaners wouldn't touch anything too "Englishy" sounding, prompting GMSA to rebadge everything as Chevrolets in the early 70s. It's a dead name there that I doubt anyone would want revived.

The Irish gradually Vauxhalls with Opels and the last Vauxhalls were sold there in the early 80s. This was done because of Vauxhall's poor brand image and the perceived German superiority the Opel name held.

The only reason Vauxhall was kept in the UK over Opel was because GM feared losing its lucrative fleet sales. At the time GM was planning to phase out Vauxhall, UK fleet buyers held steadfastly to "British" cars and GM felt Opel would be viewed as "foreign", thus risking losing half of their customers. That, coupled with Britain's Thatcher-era revival of nationalism, and victory in the Falklands, prompted GM to keep its UK brand "British".

Frankly I'm quite surprised GM hasn't phased out Vauxhall in favour of Opel in recent years, and I suspect that GM has contemplated how they could go about doing this. From what I gather from today's Britons, they couldn't care less if the cars were called Opels or Vauxhalls, since UK buyers no longer care if a car is "British" or not.

'Vauxhall' generally conjures images of horribly built, dreadfully unreliable (Canadian Pontiac Firenza anyone?) British cars. It's the LAST name in GM's portfolio that should be marketed anywhere, no less as an upscale brand.

[SierraGS]

Originally Posted by t-rex

With all due respect, SierraGS, I don't think you've spent much time in Britain's former colonies!

Vauxhall haven't been sold in India in decades, which may be to its advantage, but I doubt it'd be an instantly recognisable name to them.

I'm not sure how Aussies view Vauxhall, but the brand hasn't been represented there since the 1960s. Maybe some Aussies can shed light on what 'Vauxhall' means to them.

In New Zealand, where the brand lasted until around 1980ish, it's a very stodgy name and the situation is exacerbated by the last crop of models suffering from dreadful reliability issues.

Reviving Vauxhall in South Africa would be disastrous. While the "big six" Velox and Cresta enjoyed popularity in the 1960s, Afrikaners wouldn't touch anything too "Englishy" sounding, prompting GMSA to rebadge everything as Chevrolets in the early 70s. It's a dead name there that I doubt anyone would want revived.

The Irish gradually Vauxhalls with Opels and the last Vauxhalls were sold there in the early 80s. This was done because of Vauxhall's poor brand image and the perceived German superiority the Opel name held.

The only reason Vauxhall was kept in the UK over Opel was because GM feared losing its lucrative fleet sales. At the time GM was planning to phase out Vauxhall, UK fleet buyers held steadfastly to "British" cars and GM felt Opel would be viewed as "foreign", thus risking losing half of their customers. That, coupled with Britain's Thatcher-era revival of nationalism, and victory in the Falklands, prompted GM to keep its UK brand "British".

Frankly I'm quite surprised GM hasn't phased out Vauxhall in favour of Opel in recent years, and I suspect that GM has contemplated how they could go about doing this. From what I gather from today's Britons, they couldn't care less if the cars were called Opels or Vauxhalls, since UK buyers no longer care if a car is "British" or not.

'Vauxhall' generally conjures images of horribly built, dreadfully unreliable (Canadian Pontiac Firenza anyone?) British cars. It's the LAST name in GM's portfolio that should be marketed anywhere, no less as an upscale brand.

t-rex, thanks for your usual informative market review of foreign markets and timelines in those markets I sincerely do appreciate them and always learn something from them. My main point is that since Opel/Vauxhall will be around for reasons you outline, that GM should maximize its profit on the unique styling they spent on it for the UK market.

Perhaps you missed my statements

"since the old Opel models seem to do better than the GMDAT ones in Australia they will be sold as Holdens in Australia/New Zealand.

This plan would be duplicated in South Africa, Angola, Kenya, Tanzania using either the Holden or Vauxhall name."

and

"GM can re-enter the Japanese market with Holden/Hummer and since GM will never get a large part of the Japanese market it should focus on Holden/Hummer and Saab/Cadillac only to maximize margins."

Or my last point that I would not even limit names to Holden or Vauxhall in these new RHD markets, if Buick, Daewoo, Pontiac, GMC or Saturn "click" better with the market then use them.

If a market (for whatever reason) responds to a Buick VXR or a GMC Astra who cares? We know what vehicles these brands/names were first used on but a new market does not and since GM does not know what name is going to "click" with that market they should (after some research) try whatever makes sense and "see what sticks".

I think we are on the same thought process on the idea that trying to keep brands and model names from one market and dropping them on another does not always work and that GM should focus on taking its best products and aligning them effeciently for each market without trying to keep them duplicates of other markets. GM does this in Brazil where the sell the 4-door sedan Opel Astra as a Chevrolet Vectra.