Breaking: GM and CHRYSLER Hold Preliminary Merger Talks

[mike's 01ws6]

Originally Posted by prototype66

You read my mind! LOL
I would love to get a Zeta Javalin!!!!!!

Maybe an AMX too....

[GMusa]

wow i dont know what i think about this.. i need to know more.

[AMERICA 123]

Originally Posted by Stéphane Dumas

another more realistic possibility instead of a merger, could be various joint-ventures projects like transmissions or platforms for exemple.

Also including engines and engine transmission combinations - really just about everything.

Yep.

Big time.

That would in an immediate sense, avoid the GMAC questions and issues.

[BigAls87Z28]

Too many brands, too many problems.

Combining groups will destroy each brand. Way too much clutter.

And first off, lots of people are confusing all the info. There are no Nissan parts in the Ram, the Ram will get a Nissan grill for NG Titan.

What could happen? Chrysler and GM form an alliance type merger as one company, but 2 different systems. Like the Diamler Chrysler combo, its one group of 2 companies in which there are several divisions.

That COULD work, but there would be a lot of sharing platform wise. It would give Chrysler super small compact platforms instead of using Nissan/Renault keeping Chrysler all American.

You could come up with 100 different combos, but problem comes up that they are going to compete for eachother and GM has enough inner competition.

[Buick Riviera]

Originally Posted by Hotwheels

This thread ought to be titled ""GM and Chrysler HELD Preliminary Merger Talks". The Wall Street Journal says that the talks are on hold, and COULD be renewed when (if ?) the markets stabilize.

The article also says that Cerebus proposed swapping Chrysler for the rest of GMAC. That brings GM no cash, which is what's needed. The Chrysler brand brings nothing to GM.

Why on Earth would GM want to ad models, brands, dealerships, and add 10's of thousands of union payroll?

Only reason would be if Cerebus was bringing a pile of cash to the table, and they're not, at least according to the WSJ.

Thank you !!

[mjd1001]

Of everything people are saying on here for why this would work, wouldn't work, why GM would want to do it or not want to, or the same for Chyrsler...I am seeing one thing that is hardly discussed.....Cerberus has capital they can inject into GM. GM has said over and over, they just need the cash/financing to get through the next 12-18 months....and with Banks not lending to anyone now...and it almost impossible for companies with moderate to strong balance sheets to raise capital through bond offerings...just where is GM going to get that temporary financing? How about Cerberus?? They are in there negotiating with GM. I'm not 100% sure, but I think a large part of all of these negotiations is the following:

-GM wans the Chryser brand name.
-GM would have some interest in the Dodge Truck division
-GM WANTS/NEEDS MONEY FROM CERBERUS
-Cerberus thinks GM has a potentially better long term prospects if it can be straightened out, and is willing to give capital/money to GM in exchange for a large portion of ownership.
-Cerberus would be willing to part with Jeep (sell it to an outside interest) as an additional way to raise capital for the new GM-Chrysler brand...because while they would be losing Jeep, they would be gaining a large part of GM.

[AMERICA 123]

Originally Posted by Texan-CST/10

Brand loyalty, you don't even understand how seriously one would take it if the Ram was powered by the Duramax.

If you want to piss off a huge segment of owners, go swap parts around on trucks. And watch sales drop (more)

Yes - especially Ram Cummins owners - one of the most loyal owner groups in the industry period, and Chrysler's best.

However, the new Cummins diesels that are coming and at some point with a 7 sp DCT AT a combination that would be an outstanding addition for Hummer.

Could actually do the heavy lifting involved in saving the brand - or prepping it for a later sale.

This does not have to mess up or fully supplant the also excellent Duramax 4.5L program that's coming.

[Buick Riviera]

Gm is trying too sell hummer and trying to sell off the rest of GMAC.

[Texan-CST/10]

Originally Posted by AMERICA 123

Yes - especially Ram Cummins owners - one of the most loyal owner groups in the industry period, and Chrysler's best.

However, the new Cummins diesels that are coming and at some point with a 7 sp DCT AT would be an outstanding addition for Hummer.

This does not have to mess up or fully supplant the also excellent Duramx 4.5 that's coming.

It would be acceptable into a Brand that doesn't have a engine that's stuck with it's image, which is Hummer. With the exception of the H1 and it's Duramax (no longer around anyways), the H3 and H2 could get away with Cummins power with out much brand shock. But I doubt GM would toss it in, considering the H2 has the R&D to shove the Duramax in, and I'd wager now that the 5.3 can fit in the H3, the 4.5 Duramax would drop in as well.

It's just some things you can't screw with in brand loyalty, and truck owners are the most militant about it. That's where I see this merger going to hell if brands are killed off and products merged, Mopar boys won't be happy buying GM guys cars, and visa-versa

[mikesright]

Originally Posted by BigAls87Z28

Too many brands, too many problems.

Combining groups will destroy each brand. Way too much clutter.

And first off, lots of people are confusing all the info. There are no Nissan parts in the Ram, the Ram will get a Nissan grill for NG Titan.

What could happen? Chrysler and GM form an alliance type merger as one company, but 2 different systems. Like the Diamler Chrysler combo, its one group of 2 companies in which there are several divisions.

That COULD work, but there would be a lot of sharing platform wise. It would give Chrysler super small compact platforms instead of using Nissan/Renault keeping Chrysler all American.

You could come up with 100 different combos, but problem comes up that they are going to compete for eachother and GM has enough inner competition.

Great analysis of the problems. The only way a merger would be successful in my mind, is that Chrysler cannot be a part of the traditional divisional structure within GM. They must have quite a bit of autonomy. However, I am sure GM can find quite a few ways to deeply cut Chrysler's structure without compromising that. Within reason, platforms, engines, transmissions, and certain parts can be shared without destroying Chrysler's brand image or its differentiation.

[Tico]

Originally Posted by triadecho

I know! I know!
Let's get Ford to join in and we can call them American Motors?

YESSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!

[mikesright]

Originally Posted by Texan-CST/10

It would be acceptable into a Brand that doesn't have a engine that's stuck with it's image, which is Hummer. With the exception of the H1 and it's Duramax (no longer around anyways), the H3 and H2 could get away with Cummins power with out much brand shock. But I doubt GM would toss it in, considering the H2 has the R&D to shove the Duramax in, and I'd wager now that the 5.3 can fit in the H3, the 4.5 Duramax would drop in as well.

It's just some things you can't screw with in brand loyalty, and truck owners are the most militant about it. That's where I see this merger going to hell if brands are killed off and products merged, Mopar boys won't be happy buying GM guys cars, and visa-versa

Consider Hummer sold, and I believe GM would allow Chrysler to continue using the Cummins tbd as a point of differentiation between the two companies in a merger.

[AMERICA 123]

Originally Posted by Texan-CST/10

It would be acceptable into a Brand that doesn't have a engine that's stuck with it's image, which is Hummer. With the exception of the H1 and it's Duramax (no longer around anyways), the H3 and H2 could get away with Cummins power with out much brand shock.

Here is the reality I see on this that matters most - as a useful approximation a 20/25 mpg 'Hummer' product takes care of just about everything that needs taking care of product wise for the 'short' term..

As I said, or let me say it more clearly, its not just about the Cummin's 4.0/4.2L V6, and the 5.0L V8 - and whatever else Cummin's most definitely is doing that could contribute here down the road.

It does definitely include the 4.5L V8 Duramax and anything else you wish to include under Duramax.

You want the HD 7 speed DCT AT - for all of them - and the possibility this program includes of a HD 8 speed.

Yes, there can be some shifting around within the two engine programs especially in the Duramax program and down the road possibly some useful consolidation - including a jointly owned or more likely jointly developed Duramax / Cummins 'LD' joint venture.

Don't doubt it for a second, the well off are going to have their big, strong. powerful, fuel efficient, green diesels - thanks to the Germans - might as well get some of that - sourced in the USA you could actually make good money on it.

That's the direction Hummer should go - Jeep covering lower segments would help that along as well.

Cummins in a Hummer would be a plus with no negative - nor for Duramax either.

Don't forget, there is a useful modularity in the DCT AT program for future development - same for the Duramax programs - in a different way.

The 4.5L Duramax - and the 2.9L would be useful for all four of Chrysler's lines.

The 2.9L could replace the MB 3.0L that Chrysler buys and was planning on buying that involves Euro sourcing disadvantages ie high costs.

Cummins production load participation could also allow Duramax the time to develop modern state of the art I4 diesels - something both companies need worldwide going forward - you could export them from here in a profitable manner with the new labor contract.

This could be located within the under utilized GEMA plants relatively easily, quickly and cheaply.

Btw, a redressed Malibu 1.5 or 2.0 as a Sebring / Avenger replacement would be an easy sell to a Chrysler guy - just like a redressed Chrysler 300 2.0 would for any number of GM buyers.

And before our Holden contingent gets all bent out of shape - just picture the Rwd programs at GM and Chrysler coming together any way you want - that's the way to save 'em 'all' or what really can be going forward.

Finally, just for the hell of it, a 4.5L Duramax V8 in a 300C would work 'real fine' in all ways possible - including the overkill which is essential.

Throw in the 7 sp DCT AT and GM's / Delphi's MagnaRide suspension tech that this car as been beggin' for from day one and its a nice product to ram up a certain German manufacturer's premium 'hind' portions while you laugh all the way to the bank.

Can you say " Poetic Justice" - with a profit ?

[tamatt27]

Originally Posted by mikesright

Great analysis of the problems. The only way a merger would be successful in my mind, is that Chrysler cannot be a part of the traditional divisional structure within GM. They must have quite a bit of autonomy. However, I am sure GM can find quite a few ways to deeply cut Chrysler's structure without compromising that. Within reason, platforms, engines, transmissions, and certain parts can be shared without destroying Chrysler's brand image or its differentiation.

I agree. Lutz has cut into Chrysler before and saved it. What might be better would be GM getting Chrysler in exchange for their portion of GMAC. Cerberus paying, in forms of stake in the company, GM to take Chrysler. GM making huge cuts at Chrysler and have a GM-Chrysler relationship similar to Ford-Mazda. Chrysler might be cut down to:
Dodge: trucks, Challenger, Charger
Chrysler: cheapo-Buick (to allow Buick to move up in the range, thus Cadillac as well)
Jeep: cut Commander, Compass, add Wranger SUT

These are long-term plans, ofcourse. Cuts will come first. New product will come once profitability is within sight.

[DirtyMoney]

Originally Posted by Stéphane Dumas

another more realistic possibility instead of a merger, could be various joint-ventures projects like transmissions or platforms for exemple.

They have collab'd on 2-mode transmissions. maybe they wanna work together on hybrids/electrics.