The Benefits of Surging Oil, Recession, and the Housing Bust

[Ming]

Originally Posted by Saturn69

"Your job's a joke, you're broke, your love life's D.O.A......."

Hmmmm. I have all 10 seasons at home, perhaps I'll have to watch them again. Any reason to see Jennifer Aniston.

To follow up on my joke, I think a lot of Americans are pretty individualistic, and frankly feel a bit creeped out by the idea of hanging out with friends and family every day after work for hours on end. That's a uniquely European and Metro thing.

I grew up on the outskirts of suburbia, generally on large acreage where I had to make my own fun, climbing trees, riding a bike, or collecting insects. A lot of time alone to think my own thoughts, and the ability to go do whatever I want whenever, without social pressures to meet people at certain times, or stay later than I want.

While I don't agree with the "go home to rot like the Europeans" comment above, and I don't think the concept of learning to make do with less material "stuff" is wrong, I don't think American nuclear families and isolated individuals are ready for such a major cultural shift.

[Saturn69]

Originally Posted by goblue

Obviously if using lots of energy had no consequences - fine. You'd have a point. But, you don't.

Basically, we've been living it up while much of the world has been living in squalor. Sure, much of it is speculation and the like, but the bottom line is all that instability is caused because supply and demand are way too close. The rest of the world woke up and wants the good life too. So, unless you are willing to invade and steal oil, get used to the price.

The whole point of this article is that we can have it all - we just have to do it ourselves, and we are. We're redesigning batteries, we're pioneering alternative fuels such as cellulosic ethanol, and we're redesigning the american automobile. Your truck will just run on a combination of biodiesel and electricity - and might be a little smaller. Big deal. No one will take away your bike.

The debt issues are real. We were living beyond our means, but the real problem is income equality in this country. The middle class has been losing while the upper class has been gaining. Thats not sustainable, but thats what happens when you tax investments less than work. Housing? That was paper money which was never real borne by the stupidity of our leaders. Completely preventable. Also, you don't need a McMansion to be happy. Most of the rooms just sit there empty or collect stuff that people don't use.

As far as the Europeans not having any fun, try traveling. Clearly you haven't seen the world if you can make statements like that. Europeans work less, are healthier, and have plenty of fun. They might just take the train to the alps instead of driving an Excursion.

What? The Earth doesn't stop at California and New York? There are other people on this planet? Get out! Really? And they don't live like us, but they're fine with that? Whoa. I need to sit down....



Why does everyone paint Europe out to be some hum-drum, grayish world where everyone shlumps to and fro, never smiling, simply living to work? We live for our jobs over here, we spend more money than we need to on crap we really don't need because the television tells us it will make our lives complete to own Product X yet when we get it in the mail, it sits on our counter or our desk or in our garage never to be used after the initial "Oooooo!" phase is over and we pay 18.9% interest on it and then complain about it. And that makes us better.....how? Sure, we have a great form of Government (that we no longer govern, we simply let it off the leash and then complain when it craps on our lawn), we have a beautiful and varied landscape (that we seem more than eager to ravage if it will save us a nickel on a gallon of gas) and we have a kind, generous and loving citizenry (that we constantly demonize as Liberal for upholding supposedly Christian values when they clash with Conservative ones, yet the Conservatives claim to be the more Christian of the two)...anyway, we have all that and what do we do with it? Nothing. Nada. Oh, we have it alright, but the have is more important than the want. We are capable of being so much more than the mindless automatons that we've become if we could simply see beyond The Now.

[gardnet1]

Originally Posted by HotCarNut

Ummm.....why don't you try yelling at the oil companies as well. They have millions of barrels of untapped oil in yet to be developed fields here in the US. These fields have already been approved for drilling by the govt and the rights granted, but the oil companies have chosen not to develop them. The oil companies would rather complain and point the finger at the Arctic wildlife reserve or the continental shelf bans than to admit that they have been negligent in developing the areas that have proven oil and where rights have already been granted.

BTW: I'm a REPUBLICAN and I still get irritated with this nonsense.





Do you realize that ethanol has very VERY little to do with the rise in the price of corn? My uncle is one of the heads of the National Soybean Association and is a farmer in Illinois. The increase in the price of corn and soybeans is a direct result of the increase in cost to produce them. Why does it cost so much to grow them? The answer is oil and fertilizer, as in the diesel fuel for the farm equipment and the chemical fertilizers and pesticides that have tripled in price over the last 2 years. Farmers can't and won't produce at a loss, therefore they pass the higher costs onto the consumers. We have actually been producing ethanol in large quanitities for a long time. it just didn't make the press because it wasn't a big story until the rising price of oil brought bio-fuels and ethanol into the spotlight. Ethanol production doesn't account for anywhere near the demand that the talking heads on TV like to make it sound. Always keep in mind that those idiots are paid to sell air time and bad news sells.

Most of the leases that are untapped are going to be tapped or they aren't profitable enough to tap at current prices or they are just duds.

While I agree that ethanol isn't the only reason meat and corn prices are shooting up, I believe it is certainly a factor. Beyond that, sugar cane and sugar beets yield about 7 times more ethanol than corn and I don't believe they require as much fertilizer, tilling, etc.

[ghughes]

"we all know this tax is really about helping the planet, because there is no way it's just a tax grab, right? " - Yes, there is NOOO WAY that most of that money will find its way into the BC Bureaucrats generous retirement accounts.

[Michael_S]

Originally Posted by Saturn69

Smaller towns with less than 100,000 people? hehehe I live in a town with less than 600 people. I am 30 minutes from work so I waste 7 hours a week driving. I consolidate my trips so I'm not constantly running errands. If I forget to pick something up, I'll get it next time so there's no special trip. Yeah, the cost sucks, but even at my modest wages, I'm making do. It's all farm land from Omaha to my house. My boss lives 5 miles from work and it takes him as long to drive through city traffic as it takes me to get to work via the Interstate, and he uses more gas doing so.

Okay, your situation is different from mine.

But I stand by my point for most Americans, if not you. I grew up in a small town, and I didn't realize the benefits until I was in my suburban (nearly rural, in some ways) home for a few years.

[logansowner]

Originally Posted by Saturn69

What? The Earth doesn't stop at California and New York? There are other people on this planet? Get out! Really? And they don't live like us, but they're fine with that? Whoa. I need to sit down....



Why does everyone paint Europe out to be some hum-drum, grayish world where everyone shlumps to and fro, never smiling, simply living to work? We live for our jobs over here, we spend more money than we need to on crap we really don't need because the television tells us it will make our lives complete to own Product X yet when we get it in the mail, it sits on our counter or our desk or in our garage never to be used after the initial "Oooooo!" phase is over and we pay 18.9% interest on it and then complain about it. And that makes us better.....how? Sure, we have a great form of Government (that we no longer govern, we simply let it off the leash and then complain when it craps on our lawn), we have a beautiful and varied landscape (that we seem more than eager to ravage if it will save us a nickel on a gallon of gas) and we have a kind, generous and loving citizenry (that we constantly demonize as Liberal for upholding supposedly Christian values when they clash with Conservative ones, yet the Conservatives claim to be the more Christian of the two)...anyway, we have all that and what do we do with it? Nothing. Nada. Oh, we have it alright, but the have is more important than the want. We are capable of being so much more than the mindless automatons that we've become if we could simply see beyond The Now.

Don't be a smart ass. I know they are fine with how they live, otherwise they wouldn't live that way. I never said my way of life was better, it's just better to me. Besides I am not an American.

You're saying I am acting like there isn't anyone else, or other ways of life, and I'm not, I'm just saying it's THEIR way of life because it's what THEY like. So by the same token, you're saying we should live like them because they take trains? Well guess what, we don't have any trains. And even more hocking? I don't care. I like to drive. It's called FREEDOM, and we pay 40% tax for it.... Why do you think we separated from the Europeans? Because we wanted to live different ways.

I like my freedom to drive my own vehicle, because then I can go wherever I want, whenever I want to.

I don't hate Europeans, I just don't want to live there. Ya know, the same way you guys keep spewing stuff about America being so great, and it is because you're free to do what you please. Now we have environmentalists telling us we need to give up the freedom to drive.

What I'm saying is that before we worry about my double converter equipped vehicles, maybe we aught to look at them smoke stacks on factories spewing black smoke. I'm all for being green, but we need to focus on the right spot. Our cars are many times cleaner now, and the factories are NOT. Yet guess where the environuts focus their evil stink eye? Yep, on my god given right to drive where and when I damn well please.

I don't want to take a train, they take forever, and only go when THEY want to. And somehow we praise how fantastic a train is, but flying? Oh, that is NOT ok, shut down the evil airports.

This whole time you're telling me I shouldn't look down at the Euro way of life, while all the while looking down at my way. So I have to be accepting, but you city folk get to dictate? Everyone is entitled to their opinion, as long as it is the same as yours........

[logansowner]

Originally Posted by ghughes

"we all know this tax is really about helping the planet, because there is no way it's just a tax grab, right? " - Yes, there is NOOO WAY that most of that money will find its way into the BC Bureaucrats generous retirement accounts.

Wow, you drive a Hummer? And a REAL one, not one of those pretend, jacked up Silverado versions. Guess you single handedly killed the planet? Glad to see the hippie revolution hasn't hit everyone, some people still have the common sense to realize it's only about money.

[wescoent]

Originally Posted by logansowner

What I'm saying is that before we worry about my double converter equipped vehicles, maybe we aught to look at them smoke stacks on factories spewing black smoke. I'm all for being green, but we need to focus on the right spot. Our cars are many times cleaner now, and the factories are NOT. Yet guess where the environuts focus their evil stink eye? Yep, on my god given right to drive where and when I damn well please.

I don't want to take a train, they take forever, and only go when THEY want to. And somehow we praise how fantastic a train is, but flying? Oh, that is NOT ok, shut down the evil airports.

This whole time you're telling me I shouldn't look down at the Euro way of life, while all the while looking down at my way. So I have to be accepting, but you city folk get to dictate? Everyone is entitled to their opinion, as long as it is the same as yours........

Trains are clean, and pollute very little.

Planes and automobiles pollute a LOT for the number of people they carry.

And what factories spewing black smoke are YOU talking about? I live in New Jersey, which is full of refineries and factories, and the only thing coming out of smokestacks here is water vapor.

[Neanderthal]

Crisis tends to focus one's thoughts and energies. During the greatest crisis in memory of living Americans, WWII, this nation pulled it together and performed miracles such as Willow Run, the Manhatten Project, building cargo ships faster than an efficient enemy could sink them, advancing technology in years what in peacetime would have taken decades, all with 10 percent of our population serving under arms in one of the military services.

(Due to a fracturing of our national psyche, I don't think we could fight and win a war of the magnitude of WWII today, despite a population more than double and an economy much more robust.)

So I have to agree with some aspects of this commentary.

Many years ago, when most posters here were not even a gleam in some horny young man's eye, I wondered why people built houses that would use a lot of energy. During a couple of family moves in the 60s, when I asked why something was done an odd (in my mind, OK in a contractor's mind I suppose) way, I was told it was because gas/electricity is cheap.
That was never a logical answer to me. Why waste?


But then, I wonder why monolithic dome homes www.monolithic.com have not taken off in tornado-rich sections of the country, when stick-built houses that are little different from structures of 200 years ago (other than more flimsy construction), continue to come apart in storms like airliners hitting the ground at 200 MPH.

A colleage of mine had his home torn to shreds during a tornado around 1996. His wife and grandchild survived by bailing to the shower, and the bathroom was the only room left standing.
He rebuilt in the same spot. Despite a perfect-for-tornado-shelter hill not ten feet from the site, he did nothing to provide for added protection should another such storm come through again.
Sometimes people are just stupid.

Locally, I recently saw a debate regarding traffic in our rapidly-growing area. I forget the study's cost, probably the typical 200-400 grand.
Their recommendations? Coordinate traffic signals better. Set traffic signals to the rush hour trends.
Perhaps one or two other bright ideas that would do almost nothing to fix the broken system, which is the in-the-box thinking that continues to believe that stopping all traffic every 1/2 mile for one to four minutes is somehow conducive to improving anything other than the bottom line for brake shops, tire shops, transmission shops, body shops, and gas stations.

The obvious answer to our traffic flow up 95 is to build overpasses for all cross traffic at all dozen-odd stoplights that stop progress, waste people's time, create smog and heat, and prematurely wear brakes, tires, transmissions and use gasoline that is now hovering around four bucks per gallon.

Too expensive? Building overpasses would stimulate the local economy, it would further stimulate growth in the area (not necessarily a good thing IMO, but that is not the point), it would cut out thousands of wasted man-hours per day spent sitting at red lights, it would eliminate probably 90 percent of the wrecks that occur regularly at intersections on 95, and last but not least it would eliminate untold frustration factor points by almost completely eliminating what, to a visitor from Mars, must be one of the stupidist and most wasteful exercises that supposedly-rational humans experience every day: sitting at a light, burning fuel, creating heat and smog, doing nothing, and then burning extra fuel accelerating up to 45 MPH in order to make the next red light.

Four dollar gas, five dollar milk, three dollar bread, these are difficult items to deal with.
People who had no business buying 200-300-400 thousand dollar houses in the first place (hello Ed McMahon!! ), people who commute in 12 MPG vehicles, folks who spend six bucks a day for a cup of coffee...the beat goes on regarding inefficiencies and stupidities.
We bake our own bread now. We won't pay $4.50 for two loaves at Costco when the flour for two loaves is maybe 25 cents...

The can-do American nation that went to the moon in a decade has become the will-whine America, led by sellouts who would have been tried for treason or at least forced from office or their corporate lairs any time before LBJ was president, indoctrinated by NEA-Know-Nothing schools designed to stupidify and herd dumbed-down citizens.

The pre-hippie USA would already have much of this mess under control, IMHO. But The Greatest Generation (I disagree with the title, I believe the greatest generations was The Founders) raised the Wimpiest Generation.

There are still plenty of smart problem solvers in the US. Unfortunately few seem to be in leadership positions.
The trend has been toward narcissism, lack of critical thinking skills, and immediate gratification. And those habits and traits are what got us here, not what will get us out of the mess.

[Carver]

Originally Posted by LAMRONH

(Due to a fracturing of our national psyche, I don't think we could fight and win a war of the magnitude of WWII today, despite a population more than double and an economy much more robust.)

I think if the cause were clear and just most of the American people would have no trouble rallying to the cause and uniting. But the rationale and/or justification for many of our conflicts since WW2 have often been murky.

About the overpasses, yeah, in some places a massive overpass building spree might be justified.

[goblue]

Originally Posted by logansowner

Don't be a smart ass. I know they are fine with how they live, otherwise they wouldn't live that way. I never said my way of life was better, it's just better to me. Besides I am not an American.

You're saying I am acting like there isn't anyone else, or other ways of life, and I'm not, I'm just saying it's THEIR way of life because it's what THEY like. So by the same token, you're saying we should live like them because they take trains? Well guess what, we don't have any trains. And even more hocking? I don't care. I like to drive. It's called FREEDOM, and we pay 40% tax for it.... Why do you think we separated from the Europeans? Because we wanted to live different ways.

I like my freedom to drive my own vehicle, because then I can go wherever I want, whenever I want to.

I don't hate Europeans, I just don't want to live there. Ya know, the same way you guys keep spewing stuff about America being so great, and it is because you're free to do what you please. Now we have environmentalists telling us we need to give up the freedom to drive.

What I'm saying is that before we worry about my double converter equipped vehicles, maybe we aught to look at them smoke stacks on factories spewing black smoke. I'm all for being green, but we need to focus on the right spot. Our cars are many times cleaner now, and the factories are NOT. Yet guess where the environuts focus their evil stink eye? Yep, on my god given right to drive where and when I damn well please.

I don't want to take a train, they take forever, and only go when THEY want to. And somehow we praise how fantastic a train is, but flying? Oh, that is NOT ok, shut down the evil airports.

This whole time you're telling me I shouldn't look down at the Euro way of life, while all the while looking down at my way. So I have to be accepting, but you city folk get to dictate? Everyone is entitled to their opinion, as long as it is the same as yours........

No one is looking down at your way of life. All we're saying is we can have near the same life while being responsible about it. Yes, there will be a financial cost.

As far as the trains, have you ever been on a high speed train in Europe?

Finally, you don't have the freedom to do whatever you want, you have the freedom within what resources you have. So - want to drive whenever go whenever, then get rich - then you have real freedom.

[LoveMyCentury]

First off, I think that the fact people are starting to consider more public transit is fantastic, ESPECIALLY light rail. A well-run light rail system (like Vancouver's SkyTrain, for example, can be run pretty frequently. The SkyTrain's current average is 108 SECONDS between each train). It's clean, it's quiet, it's comfortable, and it's fast. I'm waiting for Milwaukee to actualy see the light in the light rail tunnel, though I'm doubtful.

And let's not forget, folks, the original suburbs existed and were made possible not by the AUTOMOBILE, but by TRAINS and STREETCARS. America's suburban development was just about the most unsustainable form of development we could have ever chosen to undertake. I always question why greater density, even in a suburb, somehow translates to a less enjoyable way of life. Think of the neighborhood that you, your parents, or your grandparents might have grown up in. I know mine lived in homes on long, narrow city lots with the buildings close together and yet somehow came out fine with no complaints.

Finally, I grew up in the suburbs near a very large city, and nowlive in a fairly good-sized city. In my opinion, the burbs are BORING. If you live in one with something always goiong on, then lucky you. I'm going to bet, however, that the vast majority would agree with me or would fess up to going to their nearest city for fun. Are cities perfect? Absolutely not. I totally acknowledge this. However, looking at the outer ring suburbs and exurbs which have been built, I cannot help but wonder if maybe we have expanded out TOO FAR? Why not solve whatever problems existed and be a bit more environmentally friendly instead of constantly pushing outward from the city, living farther and farther away?

Just my two cents at any rate, I suppose. Now where's that train?

[Robert Ryan]

I always question why greater density, even in a suburb, somehow translates to a less enjoyable way of life. Think of the neighborhood that you, your parents, or your grandparents might have grown up in. I know mine lived in homes on long, narrow city lots with the buildings close together and yet somehow came out fine with no complaints.

In Australia we have both: McMansions and public Transport(Not always adequate). People who work in the City either take a bus or drive to the car parks near the station. We have people travelling from 90 miles away to work on Trains(Toilets and comfortable seats, well on some lines NOT so comfortable travelling conditions on others ). Still it is awfully bearable compared to the nightmare that confronts people living in Los Angeles.

[Saturn69]

Originally Posted by logansowner

Don't be a smart ass. I know they are fine with how they live, otherwise they wouldn't live that way. I never said my way of life was better, it's just better to me. Besides I am not an American.

You're saying I am acting like there isn't anyone else, or other ways of life, and I'm not, I'm just saying it's THEIR way of life because it's what THEY like. So by the same token, you're saying we should live like them because they take trains? Well guess what, we don't have any trains. And even more hocking? I don't care. I like to drive. It's called FREEDOM, and we pay 40% tax for it.... Why do you think we separated from the Europeans? Because we wanted to live different ways.

I like my freedom to drive my own vehicle, because then I can go wherever I want, whenever I want to.

I don't hate Europeans, I just don't want to live there. Ya know, the same way you guys keep spewing stuff about America being so great, and it is because you're free to do what you please. Now we have environmentalists telling us we need to give up the freedom to drive.

What I'm saying is that before we worry about my double converter equipped vehicles, maybe we aught to look at them smoke stacks on factories spewing black smoke. I'm all for being green, but we need to focus on the right spot. Our cars are many times cleaner now, and the factories are NOT. Yet guess where the environuts focus their evil stink eye? Yep, on my god given right to drive where and when I damn well please.

I don't want to take a train, they take forever, and only go when THEY want to. And somehow we praise how fantastic a train is, but flying? Oh, that is NOT ok, shut down the evil airports.

This whole time you're telling me I shouldn't look down at the Euro way of life, while all the while looking down at my way. So I have to be accepting, but you city folk get to dictate? Everyone is entitled to their opinion, as long as it is the same as yours........

I didn't say you couldn't live your life or that you despised Europeans, I was making fun of the recent tendency for we Americans to forget that there are other people here. I wasn't looking down at you or anyone else. Sorry if it came across that way, I was merely being sarcastic. You aren't projecting, are you?

[LoveMyCentury]

Originally Posted by Robert Ryan

In Australia we have both: McMansions and public Transport(Not always adequate). People who work in the City either take a bus or drive to the car parks near the station. We have people travelling from 90 miles away to work on Trains(Toilets and comfortable seats, well on some lines NOT so comfortable travelling conditions on others ). Still it is awfully bearable compared to the nightmare that confronts people living in Los Angeles.

That's very interesting! Thanks for that information, it's always good to hear how other places do things.