The Benefits of Surging Oil, Recession, and the Housing Bust

[ghughes]

"And there is nothing that says that cities have to be riddled with crime, bad schools, and nasty air. Many American cities aren't (such as MSP, Boston, Seattle, Portland, Austin, and many others. " - snicker, snicker, portland has a higher murder and crime rate per capita than most US cities. Light rail built here has cost us $200 million/mile, not such a hot investment. Portland's air is clean bec. we only have 800,00 people in the metro area. We have terrible, expensive-to-run schools. I dare anyone on this board who thinks PDX is great to move here and try to get a $50,000 + job in the private sector.

[Saturn69]

Originally Posted by logansowner

Yes, we should just give up having a good life, filled with the things we enjoy, so we can focus on getting to work, and then staying home doing nothing the rest of the day. What a ****ing great country that will be.

There is a reason North Americans are NOT Europeans, because we aren't robots, our lives to not consist of the cheapest possible way to get to work and then just rotting away at home until we get to go back to work the next day.

You can pry my motorcycles out of my cold dead hands ya bunch a hippies.

How long till people finally catch on that this is a made up problem created to make certian sectors filthy rich? We don't need to use less fuel, we have plenty. We need to stop supporting the sand pirates, by buying their fuel when we have our own.

There is nothing good about making the poor people poorer, regardless of what certian enviro Nazis want us to think. There is no "benefit" to the rising cost of fuel and the recession.

That's like telling a terminally ill cancer patient that the benefit of their death is they wont have to go to work anymore.

What? Did you read the same article? It said nothing about taking your motorcycles away, nothing about environmentalists, nothing about making America into some quasi-European copycat, nothing about giving up our cars. Funny that everyone is in favor of capitalism until it they feel it.

[wescoent]

Originally Posted by KingElvis

BTW, it's too bad the mortgage sheisters that wrote all those bad loans, bundled them into opaque 'investment vehicles' and then made off like the bandits they are aren't being "taught a lesson" about pious financial management.

They did get taught a lesson. Most got fired when their departments were downsized last year.

[Carver]

Originally Posted by logansowner

Yes, we should just give up having a good life, filled with the things we enjoy, so we can focus on getting to work, and then staying home doing nothing the rest of the day. What a ****ing great country that will be.

There is a reason North Americans are NOT Europeans, because we aren't robots, our lives to not consist of the cheapest possible way to get to work and then just rotting away at home until we get to go back to work the next day.

You can pry my motorcycles out of my cold dead hands ya bunch a hippies.

How long till people finally catch on that this is a made up problem created to make certian sectors filthy rich? We don't need to use less fuel, we have plenty. We need to stop supporting the sand pirates, by buying their fuel when we have our own.

There is nothing good about making the poor people poorer, regardless of what certian enviro Nazis want us to think. There is no "benefit" to the rising cost of fuel and the recession.

That's like telling a terminally ill cancer patient that the benefit of their death is they wont have to go to work anymore.

You have it exactly backwards.

It's the Americans living in the suburbs that have to focus on commuting and who have less quality time off-hours partly because they spend too much time commuting.

The Europeans, living in dense neighborhoods with easy transport to other neighborhoods, can enjoy great cultural activities everyday, fine dining everyday, having friends over everyday.

Try living in the city. In Chicago we have a wide range of activities to chose from 365 days a year. Out in the suburbs you have events, what, a few times a year? There is no comparison.

[wescoent]

Originally Posted by sigma

How could all of these smaller towns survive and thrive when their freedom hating governments are forcing them all to abandon there farms and homes? Well they have cars and trucks and vans, not unlike US, but they are smaller reflecting gas price concerns. Furthermore, these towns and cities are linked to major cities with trains and bullet trains reducing the need for cars and allowing people without cars in the city easy access to the suburbs and country.

*ding*

Suburbs are fine, as long as you can access shopping, entertainment, and employment via rail.

[Quickening]

Originally Posted by Ming

From just a few weeks ago. The extreme resistance Houston's Light Rail once faced from Conservatives is hardly to be heard these days, even on local Talk Radio:

HOUSTON — The Houston City Council approved the addition of five new light rail lines Wednesday to help ease congestion in the nation's fourth-largest city.

The rail lines approved in a 13-2 vote could be completed by 2012, the Houston Chronicle reported in its online edition.

Houston was listed Tuesday as the seventh-most congested city in the nation by Inrix, a traffic information service. The rail lines would give the city 30 additional miles of light rail — up from the current 7.5 miles, said Metro spokeswoman Sandra Salazar.


www.chron.com

O rly? I hadn't heard about this. I think the current light rail is basically useless especially now that it must stop at red lights (Correct?) There were too many collisions with the thing or something.

[HotCarNut]

Originally Posted by gardnet1

The real benefit is showing the world what idiots Democrats are for not allowing us to drill for oil in our own country. We have plenty of reserves in Alaska and of the coasts of CA, FL, VA, etc.

We have more known/proven reserves than over 85% of the countries in the world but won't allow ourselves to use them.

Would it be enough to match our energy needs? Probably not but it would drastically cut down on our trade imbalance and stop shifting wealth out of the country.

Ummm.....why don't you try yelling at the oil companies as well. They have millions of barrels of untapped oil in yet to be developed fields here in the US. These fields have already been approved for drilling by the govt and the rights granted, but the oil companies have chosen not to develop them. The oil companies would rather complain and point the finger at the Arctic wildlife reserve or the continental shelf bans than to admit that they have been negligent in developing the areas that have proven oil and where rights have already been granted.

BTW: I'm a REPUBLICAN and I still get irritated with this nonsense.

Originally Posted by gardnet1

Secondly we are idiots for supporting/subsidizing corn-based ethanol which only drives up the cost of meat and food products. Why aren't we planting sugar cane or or sugar beets which are 6-7 times more efficient as an ethanol source? This one is a bi-partisan effort with blame going to both Dems and Repubilcans.

Do you realize that ethanol has very VERY little to do with the rise in the price of corn? My uncle is one of the heads of the National Soybean Association and is a farmer in Illinois. The increase in the price of corn and soybeans is a direct result of the increase in cost to produce them. Why does it cost so much to grow them? The answer is oil and fertilizer, as in the diesel fuel for the farm equipment and the chemical fertilizers and pesticides that have tripled in price over the last 2 years. Farmers can't and won't produce at a loss, therefore they pass the higher costs onto the consumers. We have actually been producing ethanol in large quanitities for a long time. it just didn't make the press because it wasn't a big story until the rising price of oil brought bio-fuels and ethanol into the spotlight. Ethanol production doesn't account for anywhere near the demand that the talking heads on TV like to make it sound. Always keep in mind that those idiots are paid to sell air time and bad news sells.

[Carver]

Originally Posted by logansowner

But the real problem is all these peopel saying they hope prices stay high so we will learn that we are ruining the planet..yadda yadda yadda.

"We do not inherit the planet from our ancestors, we borrow it from our children."

You should remember that.

[Michael_S]

Originally Posted by Saturn69

If they had a train that ran from where I live to where I work, I'd take it. They don't. Now, should I sell my home and move to the city? Should I take my children from a no-crime area where they can receive individualized attention in schools and the safety of being able to play outside without wearing Kevlar and move them to a high-crime, high drug traffic area where they have to remain in the house, with the doors locked, where they are just another face in a sea of students and get lost in the pupil-mill that is our current education system (NCLB my arse....), all to save $25 a week in gas? Hell no. I'll survive.

I understand completely. I live in the suburbs, and I won't move to a major city either.

However, you and I both forgot about smaller towns. A much nicer setup would be to move into one of the towns with less than 100,000 residents (or whatever reasonable population cap you like) that's outside a major city, with direct bus or rail lines into the city. Then you have convenient commuting into the city for work, without US inner city crime rates, and with the ability to walk to the grocery store or the park or wherever else you want to take your family.

Instead, I have to spend 25 minutes in the car just to get a loaf of bread, and I'm kicking myself for it. Even if gas was dirt cheap, the last few years I finally realized how much time I waste driving around. Forget the money, I want out of the suburbs so I can have 500 hours of my year back.

Originally Posted by KingElvis

It's a little like:

Thank God I lost my good paying job, now I appreciate how nice it was having a regular paycheck.

This loss of employement will force me to go back to school which may benefit me in the long run (or maybe I'll get a much lower paying job and 'appreciate what I have.')

"Upside to massive food shortage: Americans will eat more vegetables and grains and less meat, thereby decreasing long term health care costs from obesity."

Agreed. As good as these trends might be for the US economy in the long term, right now millions of homes are in foreclosure and people are getting hammered by expenses.

In the past year, our health insurance premiums, home heating costs, and commuting costs all went up by a wide margin. Our monthly budget costs increased about $450. We went from "income comfortably exceeds expenses" to "zero margin for error". How many other households can absorb that kind of cost increase?

BTW, it's too bad the mortgage sheisters that wrote all those bad loans, bundled them into opaque 'investment vehicles' and then made off like the bandits they are aren't being "taught a lesson" about pious financial management.

The FBI arrested and is prosecuting some 400 people across the country for real estate fraud, falsifying loan documents, and tax evasion. Something like 70 people are already serving jail sentences. So at least some of the people who took criminal advantage of the real estate bust are going to prison.

A lot of other people involved in those businesses got laid off or lost their own money when the value of the properties they bought dropped.

It's not a perfect solution, but only God (if you believe in God) is going to know enough to deliver real justice in all of this.

[Ming]

Originally Posted by Carver

You have it exactly backwards.

It's the Americans living in the suburbs that have to focus on commuting and who have less quality time off-hours partly because they spend too much time commuting.

The Europeans, living in dense neighborhoods with easy transport to other neighborhoods, can enjoy great cultural activities everyday, fine dining everyday, having friends over everyday.
.

Who needs friends when you have a sitcom of "friends" waiting at home on TV for your weary bones after your long commute?

[Saturn69]

Originally Posted by Michael_S

I understand completely. I live in the suburbs, and I won't move to a major city either.

However, you and I both forgot about smaller towns. A much nicer setup would be to move into one of the towns with less than 100,000 residents (or whatever reasonable population cap you like) that's outside a major city, with direct bus or rail lines into the city. Then you have convenient commuting into the city for work, without US inner city crime rates, and with the ability to walk to the grocery store or the park or wherever else you want to take your family.

Instead, I have to spend 25 minutes in the car just to get a loaf of bread, and I'm kicking myself for it. Even if gas was dirt cheap, the last few years I finally realized how much time I waste driving around. Forget the money, I want out of the suburbs so I can have 500 hours of my year back.

Smaller towns with less than 100,000 people? hehehe I live in a town with less than 600 people. I am 30 minutes from work so I waste 7 hours a week driving. I consolidate my trips so I'm not constantly running errands. If I forget to pick something up, I'll get it next time so there's no special trip. Yeah, the cost sucks, but even at my modest wages, I'm making do. It's all farm land from Omaha to my house. My boss lives 5 miles from work and it takes him as long to drive through city traffic as it takes me to get to work via the Interstate, and he uses more gas doing so.

[Saturn69]

Originally Posted by Ming

Who needs friends when you have a sitcom of "friends" waiting at home on TV for your weary bones after your long commute?

"Your job's a joke, you're broke, your love life's D.O.A......."

Hmmmm. I have all 10 seasons at home, perhaps I'll have to watch them again. Any reason to see Jennifer Aniston.

[logansowner]

Originally Posted by Saturn69

What? Did you read the same article? It said nothing about taking your motorcycles away, nothing about environmentalists, nothing about making America into some quasi-European copycat, nothing about giving up our cars. Funny that everyone is in favor of capitalism until it they feel it.

Yea, I got pretty rambling on that one. I'm just so sick of the suddenly enlightened people. They're no more enlightened than anyone else, they just go about bitching about oil prices in a different way.

Originally Posted by Carver

You have it exactly backwards.

It's the Americans living in the suburbs that have to focus on commuting and who have less quality time off-hours partly because they spend too much time commuting.

The Europeans, living in dense neighborhoods with easy transport to other neighborhoods, can enjoy great cultural activities everyday, fine dining everyday, having friends over everyday.

Try living in the city. In Chicago we have a wide range of activities to chose from 365 days a year. Out in the suburbs you have events, what, a few times a year? There is no comparison.

Yea, that's fine, because you live in a city, everyone else should to. I don't go telling everyone to move to rural areas. I'm not out in the sticks by any means, I live in a large town with a huge airbase. I jsut don't enjoy the city life. It depends on what you like. I like riding my motorcycles and taking the boat out to the lake. In the city, where would I keep the boat? Where would I go riding?

Originally Posted by Carver

"We do not inherit the planet from our ancestors, we borrow it from our children."

You should remember that.

Oh Jesus, I'm not running around pouring oil all over the place, or lighting huge tire fires. I just think all these people telling me I can't drive my truck because THEY don't like it are nuts. Do you hear me telling people who live in cities that they shouldn't carry weapons all the time, just because I don't? No, because I stay out of other peoples lives.

This environmental stuff is baloney. Everyone is stirring the **** all of a sudden proclaiming how much greener they are, when in fact they are just a bunch of sheeple following along because it's what is cool at the time. It's just the newest trend and it is ONLY because gas is expensive. Gas goes back down, I guarantee all but the greenest of hippies will disappear again.

All your new laws to save the world are doing is costing EVERYONE money. Tax this, tax that...then proclaim from your ivory tower that it's "for you own good".

Like the new carbon tax on all fuel in BC that starts today. Nevermind the other $2 a gallon in taxes, they needed another one. And we all know this tax is really about helping the planet, because there is no way it's just a tax grab, right? And this tax is going to persuade everyone to stop burning gas and diesel, right? Surely everyone who's business depends of transport, will just suddenly migrate to 18 wheelers fueled by water and puppy love, right?

And how bout those city sewer systems that pour right into lakes and rivers, surely that is clean, right? (yes, I know your city happens to have a good system, most do not) You have to accept that regardless of where you live, you are polluting in different ways. Most towns have sewer systems that are 100% treated, most cities do not. So I drive 20 miles to work, the guy in the city pours sewage and needles into rivers and lakes... it's just a different way of doing the same thing.

Just look at everything with a little skepticism, and it makes it much easier to see through the bullspit.

[goblue]

Originally Posted by logansowner

Yes, we should just give up having a good life, filled with the things we enjoy, so we can focus on getting to work, and then staying home doing nothing the rest of the day. What a ****ing great country that will be.

There is a reason North Americans are NOT Europeans, because we aren't robots, our lives to not consist of the cheapest possible way to get to work and then just rotting away at home until we get to go back to work the next day.

You can pry my motorcycles out of my cold dead hands ya bunch a hippies.

How long till people finally catch on that this is a made up problem created to make certian sectors filthy rich? We don't need to use less fuel, we have plenty. We need to stop supporting the sand pirates, by buying their fuel when we have our own.

There is nothing good about making the poor people poorer, regardless of what certian enviro Nazis want us to think. There is no "benefit" to the rising cost of fuel and the recession.

That's like telling a terminally ill cancer patient that the benefit of their death is they wont have to go to work anymore.

Obviously if using lots of energy had no consequences - fine. You'd have a point. But, you don't.

Basically, we've been living it up while much of the world has been living in squalor. Sure, much of it is speculation and the like, but the bottom line is all that instability is caused because supply and demand are way too close. The rest of the world woke up and wants the good life too. So, unless you are willing to invade and steal oil, get used to the price.

The whole point of this article is that we can have it all - we just have to do it ourselves, and we are. We're redesigning batteries, we're pioneering alternative fuels such as cellulosic ethanol, and we're redesigning the american automobile. Your truck will just run on a combination of biodiesel and electricity - and might be a little smaller. Big deal. No one will take away your bike.

The debt issues are real. We were living beyond our means, but the real problem is income equality in this country. The middle class has been losing while the upper class has been gaining. Thats not sustainable, but thats what happens when you tax investments less than work. Housing? That was paper money which was never real borne by the stupidity of our leaders. Completely preventable. Also, you don't need a McMansion to be happy. Most of the rooms just sit there empty or collect stuff that people don't use.

As far as the Europeans not having any fun, try traveling. Clearly you haven't seen the world if you can make statements like that. Europeans work less, are healthier, and have plenty of fun. They might just take the train to the alps instead of driving an Excursion.

[Saturn69]

Originally Posted by logansowner

There is no "benefit" to the rising cost of fuel and the recession.

Yes, there is. We get to wake up. We get to determine our own future instead of having our jobs dictate how we live. We get to stop living beyond our means and learn that less really, truly is more. We get to learn that consumerism should not be a National pasttime. We get to learn that spending time with our kids instead of spending money on our kids, is way more meaningful to them. We get to re-prioritize what is really, truly important in our lives. You can either look at the negatives, like your post, or you can look at the positives. I choose to look beyond the immediate panic monkey, pro-mineminemine mentality and see the good that can come from living simply, instead of simply living.