$25 Billion Auto Bailout may mean some RWD projects will move forward at GM

[Rick_VT]

Originally Posted by mikesright

I don't think that Zeta is necessarily dead, per se. It's still a class-leading platform and will be viable for a decade or more. The tooling is already in place, the suppliers are in place, and the Camaro is going to anchor the entire line. Hopefully, as we get closer to the light at the end of the tunnel for the economy and as we get closer to the new fuel economy standards, GM will be able to more fully utilize the platform.

I am glad that GM is proceeding with Alpha, lord knows Ponitac and Cadillac need this to survive.

Guess you missed this part of the message

"However, regardless of these revised plans, NO Alpha product will make it to the Poncho brand. Sadly, it seems any plans for a RWD Pontiac G6 are firmly dead."

[ogg vorbis]

Originally Posted by johnstarnes

I wonder if down the road, could E-Flex be used to create potent yet high mileage rear drive cars by placing the power train in what we now call the trunk, and have the trunk up front as a light weight crumple zone?

something like a mid-engined car? motors, inverters, and battery can be place beneath a trunk/seats so that the front is left free for storage as well.

last year kokam released li-p cells that could power strictly ev cars. a 40 Ah cell is 3.7 V, and weighs 1.1 kg. a 16 kWh battery with 108 cells, has 400 V and weighs 119 kg. it should give a 51 mile range at 35 mph (20% soc). being able to make mass quantities will allow gm to make pure ev, in significant numbers, and better price.

however, i realised that gm has spent the last 2 years validating the li-ion battery it intends to use in the volt next year. for whatever reason, gm bought controlling shares of ovonic, and mothballed the nimh battery. better batteries, and ultracapacitors are coming. lighter vehicles are needed.

[Exploder]

I just want to know how flexible Alpha is, how many sizes it can be adapted to. Can it grow to 200 inches? If not Zeta should not be fully abandoned - they should complement each other, with Zeta being used for light trucks/SUVs as mentioned.

This is good news, but I don't like how Pontiac will apparently be left out of the party here. Is an Alpha Pontiac such a difficult investment?

[gmhashope]

This platform should be used for all of Pontiac's cars and if not then Pontiac should get the axe.

[dracleath]

While I'm glad Cadillac is getting an alpha, and I'm glad alpha is going forward, I'm going to be Captain Obvious here and point out that Buick (and potentially Cadillac) already HAVE a ready to go, fully developed full size car that gets great reviews in its home markets and could be ready to go right now?

I'm referring of course to the Park Avenue. Divert some kits from China, slap a NA compliant front bumper on the thing, and it's ready to go.

Building it local would take some work but they're already tooling for the Camaro anyway and should have excess capacity.


Why are they reinventing the wheel by stretching the alpha series to the border of mid/full when they've got a Lucerne/DTS replacement that they could easily be selling right now, and excess capacity to build it in?

[FierySolstice]

What needs to happen is G6/Small Caddy on the alpha platform along with the next gen Camaro. If they can stretch it, next gen G8 as well. Impala should stay FWD and be larger than the Malibu. Chevy/Buick should be FWD as Pontiac/Cadillac be RWD. Exception would be Camarro/Covette. Saturn should be absorbed into Buick/Pontiac, Saab and Hummer sold, and then let the number decide what needs to happen to GMC. GM has some great original brands that they need to be reborn. I think that they can do it with this money from the government.

[FierySolstice]

Originally Posted by gmhashope

This platform should be used for all of Pontiac's cars and if not then Pontiac should get the axe.

I second that!!! An Alpha G6 would be ideal. I love the G8, but I would like something smaller, I think my Aura is too big for me. A G4 would even be great to replace the G5/Vibe. Oh and please kill the G3 now!

[MisterMe]

Originally Posted by dracleath

...

I'm referring of course to the Park Avenue. Divert some kits from China, slap a NA compliant front bumper on the thing, and it's ready to go.

...

Oh, really now? Have you ever bothered to actually spec-out a Chinese Park Avenue as a suitable product for the North American market? If you had, then you would know that it is not. Compared to the Lucerne, the Park Avenue is a much heavier vehicle powered by a choice among much smaller engines. Throw in the fact that it looks for all the world like exactly what it is--a Holden Caprice with a waterfall grille and Buick tri-shield slapped-on. If this car were offered to the North American market, then this forum would be overloaded with questions about GM's sanity--and rightly so.

[eb110americana]

Originally Posted by MonaroSS

It would probably pay to read posts. Then you would know that the "crossovers, SUV's or trucks" and "7 seater, segment busting, Family Truckster" you think we are saying should go on to Alpha, are not.

We are talking about what are they going to do with the Zeta Platform if it is replaced by Alpha. The suggestion being that after the new small cars are done then they can make lighter more efficient trucks etc.

I wasn't hating on your 'chops MonaroSS. Of course I always appreciate your creative contributions. I was referring to the open ended thread title for RWD in general, and then hearing that GM now wants to make Alpha scalable from 1-Series to 5-Series size. The problem is that every time GM does this, they don't follow through and wind up changing direction mid-step. It's like every brand smells blood in the water when a new platform is coming, and they all try to get their hooks in it--but then they lose interest as soon as something else comes along. In the end, because the platform has to be all things to all brands, it winds up getting watered down.

For example, Kappa was supposed to be scalable in length to fit 2+2 and even 4/5 seat vehicles with it's 95.1"-110" wheelbase. I would guess this is part of the reason it weighs around 500 lbs more than a Miata. GM decided after the fact that this would be too expensive. Sigma was supposed to underpin more than 2 lengths of Cadillac, but it struggles to be longer than a CTS, and the back seat of the STS is proof of that (legroom is worse than the old FWD STS). To make matters worse, Sigma also is too heavy to really see much benefit to downsizing, even if that were possible. Zeta nearly makes Sigma obsolete, but is even heavier still, and while it will scale up in size, it will not scale down. The Camaro is a good example of a car that is overweight, and has a much smaller trunk and similar interior size to the 4th gen f-bods because of a lack of flexibility and planning with Zeta.

Add to this GM's love affair with trying to score profits off of all things truck, SUV, and crossover while simultaneously exporting small car development whenever they can (hence Geo, NUMMI, creation of Saturn as a separate brand originally, Opel/Vauxhall platforms, Saab engines, and now GMDAT). GM is really having sales problems with the SUV and crossover side of the equation and they still seem to be adding more lines all the time while suspending and canceling cars. Because of this, I worry that GM will turn Alpha into another overweight platform that someone thinks would make a great crossover or med-fullsize sedan.

[Wm Holden]

Originally Posted by eb110americana

I wasn't hating on your 'chops MonaroSS. Of course I always appreciate your creative contributions. I was referring to the open ended thread title for RWD in general, and then hearing that GM now wants to make Alpha scalable from 1-Series to 5-Series size. The problem is that every time GM does this, they don't follow through and wind up changing direction mid-step. It's like every brand smells blood in the water when a new platform is coming, and they all try to get their hooks in it--but then they lose interest as soon as something else comes along. In the end, because the platform has to be all things to all brands, it winds up getting watered down.

For example, Kappa was supposed to be scalable in length to fit 2+2 and even 4/5 seat vehicles with it's 95.1"-110" wheelbase. I would guess this is part of the reason it weighs around 500 lbs more than a Miata. GM decided after the fact that this would be too expensive. Sigma was supposed to underpin more than 2 lengths of Cadillac, but it struggles to be longer than a CTS, and the back seat of the STS is proof of that (legroom is worse than the old FWD STS). To make matters worse, Sigma also is too heavy to really see much benefit to downsizing, even if that were possible. Zeta nearly makes Sigma obsolete, but is even heavier still, and while it will scale up in size, it will not scale down. The Camaro is a good example of a car that is overweight, and has a much smaller trunk and similar interior size to the 4th gen f-bods because of a lack of flexibility and planning with Zeta.

Add to this GM's love affair with trying to score profits off of all things truck, SUV, and crossover while simultaneously exporting small car development whenever they can (hence Geo, NUMMI, creation of Saturn as a separate brand originally, Opel/Vauxhall platforms, Saab engines, and now GMDAT). GM is really having sales problems with the SUV and crossover side of the equation and they still seem to be adding more lines all the time while suspending and canceling cars. Because of this, I worry that GM will turn Alpha into another overweight platform that someone thinks would make a great crossover or med-fullsize sedan.

IMO...."lighter" just means broken welds and kinked body panels on high hp versions...doors that refuse to open...etc.
THANK GOD (or Bob Lutz) the GTO can handle 600 hp without becoming a creaking bucket of trouble.

Zeta seems stronger still (time will tell) .......alpha lighter??? good luck holding that together.

[HoosierRon]

Originally Posted by MisterMe

If this car were offered to the North American market, then this forum would be overloaded with questions about GM's sanity--and rightly so.

Insane.

[GM2004]

Originally Posted by eb110americana

I wasn't hating on your 'chops MonaroSS. Of course I always appreciate your creative contributions. I was referring to the open ended thread title for RWD in general, and then hearing that GM now wants to make Alpha scalable from 1-Series to 5-Series size. The problem is that every time GM does this, they don't follow through and wind up changing direction mid-step. It's like every brand smells blood in the water when a new platform is coming, and they all try to get their hooks in it--but then they lose interest as soon as something else comes along. In the end, because the platform has to be all things to all brands, it winds up getting watered down.

For example, Kappa was supposed to be scalable in length to fit 2+2 and even 4/5 seat vehicles with it's 95.1"-110" wheelbase. I would guess this is part of the reason it weighs around 500 lbs more than a Miata. GM decided after the fact that this would be too expensive. Sigma was supposed to underpin more than 2 lengths of Cadillac, but it struggles to be longer than a CTS, and the back seat of the STS is proof of that (legroom is worse than the old FWD STS). To make matters worse, Sigma also is too heavy to really see much benefit to downsizing, even if that were possible. Zeta nearly makes Sigma obsolete, but is even heavier still, and while it will scale up in size, it will not scale down. The Camaro is a good example of a car that is overweight, and has a much smaller trunk and similar interior size to the 4th gen f-bods because of a lack of flexibility and planning with Zeta.

Add to this GM's love affair with trying to score profits off of all things truck, SUV, and crossover while simultaneously exporting small car development whenever they can (hence Geo, NUMMI, creation of Saturn as a separate brand originally, Opel/Vauxhall platforms, Saab engines, and now GMDAT). GM is really having sales problems with the SUV and crossover side of the equation and they still seem to be adding more lines all the time while suspending and canceling cars. Because of this, I worry that GM will turn Alpha into another overweight platform that someone thinks would make a great crossover or med-fullsize sedan.

Lutz said the testing on the Kappa 2+2 proved unstable in testing and further investing was canceled. The stretched platform was just to much for the hydroformed frame. The frame on the turbo model also had to be stiffened to reduce flex. There was hope that the Kappa would move to the Alpha in the next generation, but the next KappaII was canceled. From an early report the Kappa seems to be coming to an end as early as the Fall of 2009. No official word yet.

[Kennyboy]

This good to hear. I'm hoping Alpha incorporate aluminum parts and composite materials to reduce weight. Everyone knows that the Zeta platform is too top heavy for better fuel economy.

[cyclone]

Gm, Wait A Second!!! You Don't Need Ten Of The Same Kind, How About Just One?????????????

[dracleath]

Originally Posted by MisterMe

Oh, really now? Have you ever bothered to actually spec-out a Chinese Park Avenue as a suitable product for the North American market? If you had, then you would know that it is not. Compared to the Lucerne, the Park Avenue is a much heavier vehicle powered by a choice among much smaller engines. Throw in the fact that it looks for all the world like exactly what it is--a Holden Caprice with a waterfall grille and Buick tri-shield slapped-on. If this car were offered to the North American market, then this forum would be overloaded with questions about GM's sanity--and rightly so.

...

You mean the 3.8 L V6 that's stock in the lucerne and gets 197 bhp and 233 ft-lbs is a much bigger engine than the 2.8 L V6 that gets 204 hp and 194 ft-lbs that is stock in the Park avenue.

Yeah, I guess that's true. But it's pretty irrelevant. Park Avenue China has the same engine choices as the (American)CTS, not anemic at all. And there's always the Alloytec 6.0 v8 to drop in if needed.

The cars have virtually identical dimensions. Park avenue is 300lbs heavier. Boo hoo. Guess what car is also about 300 lbs heavier than the Lucerne? Ever heard of the Cadillac DTS?

And we all know that GM HAS NEVER EVER REBADGED A CAR BEFORE. I'm sure the world would be completely shocked at such an occurance.