2009 U.S. EPA Ratings List A Pontiac "G3 Hatchback"; VW Jetta Diesel Rated @ 30/41MPG

[CharlotteFirebird]

Please tell me this isn't true. If it is, it's the worst GM decision in years.

[YupYupYup]

Originally Posted by Family Man

This could be nothing at all, but what can Pontiac do to survive? If gas keeps climbing, the US will become what Canada was just a few years ago. Gas here was barely $1 per litre ($4 per gallon), and we drove small, efficient cars. Sunfires sold in greater volumes than Cavaliers. There are just as many 4 door G5 on our roads as Cobalts. Waves and Aveos scamper about on our roads in similar numbers to Accents and Rios.

Pontiac dealers here (who are sometimes the only GM brand in the neighborhood) needed small, efficient cars to sell, or else buyers went elsewhere. GM/Pontiac needs to be in a position to offer an inexpensive vehicle to buyers where Aveos are unavailable. G5s and Matrix may be just too expensive.

Sometimes car companies need to be flexible in order to survive. The economic landscape in the US is changing very, very fast (forget that BS that inflation is under control). I just read an article that people are paying large sums of money for used Geo Metros. It's all about survivability in the future, and GM will need to adapt most of its brands, or many dealers will close.

Except for the endless supply of Mercedes SL500s, Porsche Cayennes, Aston Martins and Maseratis clogging Crescent street (Montreal). Actually the only place you see all those small cars is in the burbs of Montreal and surrounding areas. Dowtown is full of gas-guzzling premium cars. For the rest of the population, the more real reason Quebecers select smaller cars is due to a lower average income and incredibly high taxes. They still have a penchant for driving everywhere, so gas seems to be less of an influence.

For all those in the U.S. that bitch about "high gas prices", the Canadian average is around $6 a gallon! The U.S. still has the lowest gas prices in the world, except for those desert boys in the Middle East. Americans were spoiled by CHEAP gas for so long...

[Bigbee60]

Originally Posted by Perian

With all I have read about the upcoming VW Jetta diesel, I must admit to being quite surprised at the official EPA MPG figures of 30 City and 41 Highway (with a manual transmission).

Remember this quote from Popular Mechanics*: "If reports are correct, the Jetta should get upwards of 50 mpg, combined highway and city."

The US car magazines read the European numbers and forget to adjust for the British Imperial gallon (BIG) used in the mpg calculations. The BIG is 20% more than the US Gallon, so 30/41 US = 36/49 BIG. Add in the different test speed procedures for city/highway loops in Europe and you get probably 10% better city and 5% worse highway and a net gain in overall economy. Also, per the VW website, they have three different diesel models than the one sold here (all smaller displacement) so that means better mpg for those engines.

[stevecmh]

Originally Posted by Hurricane

it dosnt look to bad for a small car.

good catch people

[t-rex]

If they could simply drop the Opel OPC 1600 Turbo under the hood of a G3/Wave three-door, that'd make a nifty sporty subcompact for Pontiac. Having a different body style and engine from the Aveo would narrowly allow such a model to escape "rebadge" status...

Get used to the idea guys, it's quite possible that hopped-up compacts are going to be crucial to Pontiac's survival in the future. GM can't afford to maintain a division selling only G8's, Solstices, and Firebirds, as many Pontiac fans on here suggest. At least not in today's environment.

[t-rex]

Originally Posted by PontiacBixler

If I've said once I've said it a million times.... There was nothing wrong with the Aztek.

I am being serious though. It could have become a nice sporty SUV/CUV for Pontiac today, much like the new BMW X6. Widen the stance and make it more aggressive looking and Pontiac would have had a screamer of a Ute.

Please God, don't let GM knee jerk Pontiac again by bringing out a G3. The G5 was horrendous enough and still is.

I point and laugh at people who drive a Pontiac Cobalt. It's the red headed step child of Pontiac. You can tell that Momma Pontiac was spending too much time hanging around Poppa Chevy instead of Poppa Pontiac when that ******* child came out.

I don't see why Pontiac "fans" are so averse to the idea of Pontiac crossovers. I don't mean crossovers like the Lambdas, I'm thinking more along the lines of Infiniti FX and BMW X6. While crossovers may not fit in with the Joe Dirt image of Pontiac that its hardcore fans have, the bottom line is that crossovers sell, and are poised to become one of the market's most lucrative segments as buyers shy away from SUVs and trucks.

This thing is just begging to become a Pontiac....




With a dearth of affordable sporty-themed crossovers, something like this might bring a lot of traffic into Pontiac showrooms. Why let the Mazda CX7 dominate this segment?

Put this on the market, call it something like Pontiac Typhoon CrossCoupe, power it with a turbo Ecotec four or optional 3.6 DI V6, and watch 'em fly off the lots.

People may hate crossovers, or the idea of one with a Pontiac badge (yeah like Pontiac's sooooo revered by the public), but the bottom line is they sell. Ford's ancient Escape is selling better than it ever has. GM needs to muscle in on this segment, and something like this might just be the ticket.

Well it was an idea....

[AMERICA 123]

Originally Posted by Perian

Here in New York, regular gasoline is selling at $ 4.09, while diesel is $ 5.05 per gallon...a 23% difference.

Well, evidently it depends where you are in NY, that fine state currently with the third highest diesel prices in the country and the recent second quarter diesel fuel tax increase.

More to the point, the national average diesel premium has been increasing of late and is currently running an average between 19.2 - 19.5 % ( close approx ).

Fuel prices from OPIS via Mapquest for NYC,NY are as follows ;

Regular.. 3.54 - 4.36
Premium 3.65 - 4.68
Diesel.....4.22 - 5.40


These prices ( in theory anyway ), are supposed to be anywhere from current to no more than 48 hrs old but are updated only seven times daily adding to possible lag .
Sooooo ...... some portion of these ranges are very likely obsolete.

Having spot checked a few zips I'm familiar with there it appears certain NYC is currently experiencing a higher premium than the national average - approx. in the range of 20 - 25% - no ms on that last number.

Going the other way, nationally, the lowest spread in a decent sized area that looks believable is in the 10 -12% range.

Bottomline line is it really depends when and where you measure.

In terms of the easily accessible sources national averages tend to be more reliable although typically yesterday's data.

[WishIhadatruck]

Although a lot lower than the magazines predictions the Jetta #'s aren't that bad. The Jetta is not a small car anymore and those #'s are pretty impressive for what it is. What other mid-size car can compete with it? The Camry hybrid is close but no better. The Jetta will be much better on the hwy. I know the Jetta is still a compact but it is a large compact so a direct comparison is sort of iffy. The interior space is the same as a Honda Civic with a much larger trunk than either of them. It will be interesting to see the real world mpg.

I'm guessing the 50mpg estimate for the Subaru Outback diesel that is coming in a year or so isn't so accurate either.

I'm assuming we really won't see the G3 here in the US.

[YupYupYup]

Forgot to add this...

Small turbos...

[Strapping.Young.Lad]

The TDI will get 50, my dad gets 50+ all the time. The EPA is wrong.

[nadepalma]

Originally Posted by nsap

If I recall, the Pontiac G4 (a Canadian-only Cobalt knock-off) was listed on the EPA's website for awhile when it first came out.

I thought it was a Mexico-Only knock off?

In Mexico they definitely had a "G4" and then re-dubbed it the G5 the following year.

In Mexico they also have the "G2 Matiz" and a G3 sedan that's based on the Aveo sedan.

Sad part is that Pontiac has a more consistent lineup in Mexico than it does in the US.

Originally Posted by CamaroCrazy

Are we talking about the Canadian Pontiac Wave here? Did it get renamed G3?

I'd rather see Pontiac die than have to market their own rebadged version of the Aveo in the US. There is nothing cool or sporty about that car. Don't even try it GM - knowing them, they'll screw it up and it will look as bad as the G5.

Yes, the Canadian market Wave is the G3 in Mexico, but only in four door form I believe.

I agree that having Pontiac get an Aveo rebadge in the US would be sad business. But I also know that GM will be looking everywhere to sell more fuel efficient products and raise their CAFE numbers - perhaps they are looking to recast Pontiac as a "Scion-eque" brand the way the rumors have suggested?

[Extreme4x4]

Originally Posted by FordRules

The TDI will get 50, my dad gets 50+ all the time. The EPA is wrong.

Well gosh, then I guess we will need to change the window stickers........... to read.......... instead of EPA estimates........... Fordrules Dads Estimates (FDE estimates).

Do realize that most people can consistantly beat the EPA numbers, in anything, if they drive conservatively. However, I have never read a window sticker, where there was a number that was titled "Fuel economy you might get if the conditions are perfect, and you drive like you have eggshells under your gas pedal."

[PhishPhood]

Originally Posted by BrickTamland

I do have to say I am unimpressed with the Jetta diesel's mileage. Maybe it's a conspiracy - they dilberately made the Jetta's economy subpar so we would continue to purchase all gasoline powered cars...

Actually the EPA test cycles ( pre-2008 ) are perfectly well known to all makers. In fact to save money the manufacturers just submit their results to the EPA for verification. The EPA then can ask to do some random verifications, especially for new models.

Then in 2008 the EPA decided to make us all hyper-milers because it was sick of hearing that no one could get the EPA values... so it simply cut the numbers 10-20% based on AC usage and high speed driving coefficients. Blam..!!.. we all now exceed the EPA values.

I think what was printed before and what might have been on VW's marketing presentations was what the 'real world' numbers might be. The only problem is that from now on they can't mention these...by law. All they can mention is the EPA values. Poor marketing.

It was noted over in a thread on Edmunds that the EPA values are no where near the Prius or Civic hybrids, their natural competitors but actually about the same as the Camry/Altima and soon the Malibu/Fusion hybrids.

Unfortunately for the Jetta it's smaller than the C /A /M /F hybrids and diesel doesn't seem to want to come down any time soon. Double whammy. On top of that it's a VW .... three strikes 'Yer OUT!!'

[Mr. Burns]

Originally Posted by Sinner

G5

Well it was first called the pursuit, then changed to "G5 Pursuit" and then finally "G5". So some people have the "pursuit" badge, some have the "G5" badge, and some poor souls have both, all on the same car.

This is why people buy corollas.

[AMERICA 123]

Originally Posted by PhishPhood

Actually the EPA test cycles ( pre-2008 ) are perfectly well known to all makers. In fact to save money the manufacturers just submit their results to the EPA for verification. The EPA then can ask to do some random verifications, especially for new models.

Then in 2008 the EPA decided to make us all hyper-milers because it was sick of hearing that no one could get the EPA values... so it simply cut the numbers 10-20% based on AC usage and high speed driving coefficients. Blam..!!.. we all now exceed the EPA values.

I think what was printed before and what might have been on VW's marketing presentations was what the 'real world' numbers might be. The only problem is that from now on they can't mention these...by law. All they can mention is the EPA values. Poor marketing.

It was noted over in a thread on Edmunds that the EPA values are no where near the Prius or Civic hybrids, their natural competitors but actually about the same as the Camry/Altima and soon the Malibu/Fusion hybrids.

Unfortunately for the Jetta it's smaller than the C /A /M /F hybrids and diesel doesn't seem to want to come down any time soon. Double whammy. On top of that it's a VW .... three strikes 'Yer OUT!!'

Hey PhishPhood - wanna' make a friendly wager on just how well this diesel and the next three do ????

Here's an idea along those lines .

You can have all the existing hybrids and I'll take the existing diesels plus enough of the new ones to equal out the roster.

Yes, that gives you quite a leg up at the start.

I don't consider that a problem.

Almost forgot - I get anything H2.