[AMERICA 123]

Originally Posted by eurohazard

First, I enjoy the author's use of words and sentences.

So do I - although riddled with technical detail error - the main thrust is correct - IMO.

Somewhat sloppy with tremendous insight nonetheless.

He's a better writer than a fact checker.

YEP - which takes nothing away from what he's saying - even after proper correction.

Wrong. GM retained #1 status for 2007.

In many circles this is correct - because GM did retain Sales Volume Leadership.

In another group - its recognized that GM outsold Toyota by approx 3,100 units worldwide - and Toyota outproduced GM by a larger number - which is also significant - even tho they stuffed the living **** out of their pipeline to accommodate that.

I agree - should be rewritten - any number of ways.

The point he makes will still stand - Toyota's volume is enormous and functionally equivalent or ahead - as it is now .

YTD 2008 Toyota is ahead by 277,000 plus sales units - that is relevant as well.

Wrong. Toyota wagons were a staple in the 70's (Corona, Corolla etc). the oldest Toyota wagon I can think of is the 1962 Crown.

Again, you are both right and both wrong - and again the author's error when corrected does not materially change the thrust or strength of the main argument.

The first Toyota Station wagon in the USA that was even remotely successful was the mid - late '70's Corolla wagon.

Technically speaking, because it was so small it did not meet many/most definitions of an American Station Wagon and was treated as such.

Really sold and thought of as a Corolla with a decent boot.

Virtually almost no American consumers bought it as a American Station Wagon replacement - no 6 - 9 passenger capacity.

Supra is an icon. Corolla is an icon too if by no other reason than being continually made/updated/improved for 10 generations and counting.

NOPE to both.

Supra has an extremely small and growing smaller but active group of followers - those 30,000 mile or less headgasket replacements will do that to you - it doesn't even begin to qualify although its closer than almost all other Toyota product.

That's about as useful an observation as noting that the guy sitting in the tail of the airplane by the lavatory hit the ground last when the plane crashed.

Corolla - the car - Iconic ???? - which one ?????

Reality would suggest the only possibly relevant question is - is the nameplate Iconic ?

Possibly in some market segments in some parts of the world, but really the question isn't about Iconic nameplates that an OEM's marketing program wishes to build a phony heritage with, is it.

Even there, it's not a sure thing worldwide - is there the critical mass ??? - don't think so - but it could on a localized level in some locations.

The 2000GT is an icon (You Only Live Twice).

Without a doubt, the most interesting car to wear a Toyota badge - got to drive one once and I liked it well enough.

( Also without a doubt - and I only mention this since we're walking thru all your trivialities the James Bond series does include some real Iconic cars - in some cases it helped make them so. Best example by far would be the Aston Martin DB in Goldfinger . )

Of course, that's because Toyota had next to nothing to do with it's design - go look at the history behind the car - it's basically an inherited product program - that sold almost no volume anyway ( - was technically a failure in light of it's price point ) - effectively all of which was in Japan.

Very Interesting - yes - as a footnote in automotive history concerning a Japanese interpretation of an English Sports Car by an interesting and innovative small Japanese firm that was swallowed up by big bad Toyota - the act of which was facilitated by the Japanese Government..

Iconic ? - part way there - at least starts in the qualifying heats - but doesn't cross the line - never mind making it into the finals.

Porsche Cayenne anyone? I believe if it wasn't for America's love of SUV's, the Cayenne would never be.

And your point is ????

The author is correct - Porsche - the brand ( over all ) is Iconic.

The author is also correct in that Porsche's German heritage is an asset in NA.

The author is also correct in recognizing - as Toyota does themselves that they need to appear as 'All American' as possible ( and not Japanese ) in order to take their NA sales volume to the next level.

Calling Toyota's Hybrid system "primitive" is laughable. Raise you hand if you once questioned the complexity of the Prius.

Ah, here you commit an understandable mistake - in certain circles ( that matter ) inefficient complexity is a sure sign of 'primitiveness' - the HSD program is also primitive in another way that's easier to understand - it's hopelessly complex and costly to transfer from platform to platform - has to be custom fitted and located within the chassis - see GM Two Mode ( or BAS ) for how to do properly and largely avoid or minimize this problem.

Is the GM/BMW/DMC version better, more sophisticated? Maybe. The claim to "better mileage"....which vehicle I ask?

No maybe about it.

Any HSD system when operated out of it sweet spot becomes a total loser - Two Mode is way, way, more forgiving - less sensitive by far - and really has more impressive performance even within the sweet spot.

False; this is smoke and mirrors. Please guys follow this link to his reference... http://www.healthycar.org/documents/...carguide07.pdf Page 14 shows charts with "least concern" and of "most concern":
GM has 7 vehicles listed as least concern, and 6 vehicles listed as most concern.
Toyota has 2 vehicles listed as least concern, and 2 vehicles listed as most concern.
Or we can break it down to green (low concern), and red (high concern):
GM green: 9, GM red: 5 (it's good thing GM sold most of Suzuki, because Suzuki had a lot of red)
Toyota green: 4, Toyota red: 4

Well, I don't know what to say here - you seem to be more guilty of smoke and mirrors than anything by the author ..... the author does appear to have correctly represented the scores and relative standings - you seem to be looking at it differently using a different scoring system - than the authors of the report - and the report's own scoring system .

I'm not done looking at this so things could change - you also do not seem to have read the whole report - which supports the author's presentation.

False. Honda and FORD were allowed the tax credit: http://www.wrrc.p2pays.org/ref/37/36062.pdf Gm wasn't because GM only had the Silverado hybrid. Who remembers that? No magazine I read actually got improved gas mileage. The "hybrid" part was used mainly to power tools from the bed (it had four 110-volt outlets). So why would it deserve a tax credit under that system?

Here, you look worse than weak.

Once again, you and the author are both correct and wrong.

As initially passed and used it was exclusively for the Prius.

Later, when 're provisioned' the program was expanded - the author should've covered all three parts of this - as well as yourself.

Having said that, the point while in a sense weakened just a bit still stands - especially the implicit/explicit connections between the program, Toyota, and West Virginia's Senator.

It is technically misleading the way it stands - but does not affect the final outcome in the least.

Interest lying enough, your attempted 'correction' - ( much like your entire post ) is even more misleading than that.

Right now, you appear, at best, to be a phony fireman attempting to douse a small storage locker fire with gasoline - nothing personal.

Many things are wrong here, well let's say confusing or misguided. The Accord Hybrid got V6 gas mileage....that's why demand wandered and it was ditched by Honda.

On this one he's got it right and wrong but you're off the larger amount. I'm not going to post everything necessary - but go do your homework again - there are two very distinct Honda Accord hybrid groupings - with two very distinct EPA numbers. I suppose the author could've covered this as well but it's somewhat of a judgment call - doesn't really have much impact in exclusion. ( From a rusty , dusty memory the 2007 Accord hybrid added a moonroof ?, a spare tire, and approx. 3- 4mpg ? to the previous variant. ( External appearence was largely the same and was carried over a bit even when the 2008 arrived. )

The Insight did get better EPA ratings than Prius, but many real world numbers showed otherwise. Another thing is the Insight looked just as unique as the Prius, it wasn't based on another car. And is it so hard to overlook the fact that the insight had 73 hp, and was a 2 door-2 seater?

Again, an incomplete but somewhat accurate and useful observation - what's the point again ???

The Prius is a "real" car w/ ~150 hp, 4 doors, and seating for 4 adults.

Hmmmm, so 'two seat' two doors are not real cars ??????? - and the Prius is ??????? - and the Insight was not a 'real' commuter car ??????

And what pray tell, did you say earlier about two - two door / two seat 'Toyota' (badged) Sports Cars - is there now a separate category of Iconic 'nonreal' cars as well ?????

I am on page 12.....I'm done for now. More to follow.

Can't wait - although I'm extremely disappointed in what you managed to not cover in the first 12 pages - including all the main topics and the really insightful stuff about the (nasty) charade that is Toyota.

Also, lets work together and integrate the basically 'enlightened' slave labor report on Toyota from the NLC with this one.

I agree there are corrections - in details that are desirable - but the biggest one needed of course would be to add in the NLC report - doncha' think ???

Of course, that would buttress the whole presentation would it not ?