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Originally Posted by EricR42
I am one of the NY Project Driveway drivers. I can say that the fuel cell Equinox is a fantastic vehicle. Smooth, snappy acceleration (I timed 0-60 in the 9.5 second range) and very quiet. This is to be expected from an electric powertrain.
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Eric,
Glad to hear you are enjoying the Equinox. Keep in mind that no one is claiming that hydrogen fuel cells are not "capable" of driving a car. I am only questioning the logic behind trying to develop the needed massive infrastructure to support such a technology and the efficiency of using power to generate hydrogen when the same amount of power would result in more range in a PHEV. Especially since the infrastructure needed to recharge a PHEV is 100% deployed to virtually every home in America today. A small fraction of the existing gas stations could be used to support longer trips. Infrastructure done!
Quote:
Originally Posted by EricR42
Regarding the "why hydrogen?" question, the main reasons are 3 minute fillups and scalability to different size vehicles. PHEV is great if you don't plan on exceeding your charge during the day and are satisfied with a relatively small car (the relationship between battery weight and vehicle size reaches a point of diminishing returns) . Gasoline range extenders like in the Volt are a great mid-term solution. But hydrogen is truly renewable, and can be made in a truly renewable manner. With gas prices the way they are currently, hydrogen is cheaper on a cost per mile basis than gasoline, even when generating hydrogen in the least efficient manner (water electrolysis).
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3 minute fill-ups take how long? You drive to a station (if you are lucky it is on the way home) and stop and connect the car to the pump and then process the payment and then fill the tank and then disconnect the filling hose from the car. Is it safe to say we are a little over 3 minutes? Not to mention that there are exactly how may filling stations that you can use? I am guessing that you were selected for the trial because you are close to the only station within many miles. You get my point. PHEV are simply plugged in at home each night (with a little luck you will simply drive it into a docking station similar in some was to what your notebook computer uses). The car will be charged during off-peak time and be full every morning. You may never have to visit a "gas" station again. In fact, GM estimates that 78% of Americans drive less than 40 miles to commute to and from work each day. That is within the range of the upcoming Volt PHEV.
As for scalability - Busses and even trains use electric motors. In the case of "bullet" trains the power is drawn from a "wire" so there is little or no battery needed but they are in a sense "plugged in". Diesel electric trains have existed for many decades. In this case, the diesel engine runs at it's most efficient speed and drives a generator. The energy is used to drive the electric motor. I'm not sure the scalability argument is valid – but I will give it more thought.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EricR42
To illustrate with my experience, over the course of my last fillup, I averaged 54 miles per kg of hydrogen. This was combined stop-and-go, highway and city driving. My understanding of the cost of hydrogen via water electrolysis is about $8/kg. The gasoline Equinox gets about 19 or 20 mpg. So, although a kg of hydrogen costs twice as much as 1 gallon of gas, the fuel cell variant gets more than twice the mileage. Generating hydrogen from steam reforming natural gas (the most common means of generating hydrogen), the cost per kg will be between $3.00 and $5.00.
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A Chevy Volt will travel 40 miles on approximately $1.60 worth of electricity at California's ridiculously high rates ($0.20 per KW/hr). That represents 40 miles for less than $0.80 in most of the rest of the country. Using your low cost of $3.00/kg/54 miles you are getting 1 mile for 5.5 cents (15 cents per mile at $8/kg). The Volt, even in California, will cost only 4 cents per mile. 2 cents per mile in most of the rest of the country (or less). Again - with 100% of the recharging infrastructure in place today - and, conveniently, in peoples homes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EricR42
With regard to scalability, a fuel cell stack can be used to power everything from portable electronics to a large ship. The one in the Equinox is GM's 4th generation. The Provoq has the 5th gen which is half the size, and 80% the power. And the 4th gen powertrain generates 236 pounds of torque.
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Of course you realize that the torque is a function of the motor used and the current the fuel cell can deliver. As you know, even the simple lead acid battery in your car can deliver 300-600 amps for short periods of time so I suspect that a battery design could ultimately deliver as much or (considerably) more current than a "typical" fuel cell resulting in even more torque (depending on the internal resistance of the battery).
Quote:
Originally Posted by EricR42
One big impediment to widespread commercialization of fuel cells is that local municipalities don't know how to permit the refueling stations. I am working on this issue now with my town, but it will take a serious grass-roots efforts to help (or convince) the municipalities to create the permitting process now, so that these processes will be in place as vehicle production begins to scale up.
- Eric
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I think you are right. It is likely to take a decade or more to get a significant number of the 200K gas stations to offer hydrogen and then at a tremendous cost. This begs the question - why? Especially when 100% of the needed infrastructure exist today to recharge a PHEV.
I really would like to understand the reasoning behind the huge investment the government and car companies have put into hydrogen fuel cells. If there is any way I could ask this question to your "Project Driveway" team? I would really be interested in understanding their reasoning. I’m not trying to simply argue, but rather understand.
Ed